Improved Invisiblity, Can you be seen astrally? Options

[Morvegil]

Can watches spirits or other mages see if you if have this? If so how can you hide astrally?

[Yerameyahu]

Yes, and you basically can't.

[bobbaganoosh]

Watchers are easily defeated by using Infiltration, because they have a dicepool of 2. The only issue that there isn't much to hide behind on the astral.

[Chinane]

Watchers are easily defeated by using Infiltration, because they have a dicepool of 2. The only issue that there isn't much to hide behind on the astral.

That would depend on how distracting the real world shadowing into the astral actually is.

[Yerameyahu]

Basically, check out the Astral Visibility mods in Street Magic.

[Sengir]

Watchers are easily defeated by using Infiltration, because they have a dicepool of 2. The only issue that there isn't much to hide behind on the astral.

Except basically everything which also exists on the physical world, astral shadows are opaque...spirits or projecting mages are able to stick their heads through the astral shadow of the wall you are hiding behind, but unless they actually do you remain hidden (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

Yeah, that would fall under "actively trying to remain hidden". Which is an opposed infiltration check that the watcher will almost certainly fail.

On the other hand, if you're just strolling up to the watcher in plain astral sight, no opposed test needed, the watcher automatically sees you.





-k

[SpellBinder]

You wouldn't believe how paranoid my last group was about watcher spirits despite how much I kept telling the astrally aware players that stuff like windows and other objects obstructed astral perception & such. Their tactic to deal with them was... less than subtle to say the least.

[NotPotato]

You hide astrally by using a spirit with the conceal power.

[Mercer]

This is something I've always been sort of fuzzy on with regard to the Conceal power: how easy is it to see the spirit in astral that is using the power? Should the summoner include the spirit in the targets for the conceal and so the spirit is rolling Infiltration along with the rest of the things it's concealing?

It's worth noting that Conceal aids one in the opposed Infiltration vs Perception check; it helps you hide, but doesn't hide you itself. There still needs to be some cover for you to use Infiltration.

[Udoshi]

I recall a bit in street magic regarding spell auras - the aura of the spell it self is rather easy to spot on the astral.

However, regular invisibility and extended masking should work wonderfully for astral infiltration.

[Yerameyahu]

I'm not sure there's any rule that you need any X before you may use Infiltration, though certainly there's some common sense issues.

[Tashiro]

Hmm. Okay, so if something has astral vision (such as a dual natured creature), then Improved Invisibility isn't going to do much. I'd presume ruthenium polymers aren't going to help much either, am I right? The next big question for me would be, 'does concealment help on the astral plane?'

(Edit) Yup. RAW says it protects against astral vision.

[The Jake]

Yes, and you basically can't.

Masking can.

- J.

[Irion]

Btw: What kind of modifier would it be to hide from a guard you neither know is there nor see?

I mean it is much easyer to hide from a target, of which you know the position than it is to hide from someone who could be there or could not be there...

Just use the invisibility modifier -6? Or should it be higher?

@Udoshi

However, regular invisibility and extended masking should work wonderfully for astral infiltration.

Well, depends on the situation. Regular invisibility does not really work. (SEPERATION OF PLANES!)
(Unless you cast it on the astral plane, for which you need to stay dual natured or don't depending on how you read the rules...)

Masking only changes your aure, it does not hide it. It would work in combination with shapechange. So you would seem to be a regular dog, rat, pidgeon whatever...

[The Jake]

Masking only changes your aure, it does not hide it. It would work in combination with shapechange. So you would seem to be a regular dog, rat, pidgeon whatever...

To be fair, I guess this is subject to interpretation. I interpret that it does:

Masking: A character who learns masking can change the appearance
of her aura/astral form to do the following: look mundane, look
as though her Magic is higher or lower than it is (+/– your grade of
initiation), or look as though she is a different type of astral creature.
When someone attempts to assense the aura of an initiate
using masking, make an Assensing + Intuition Opposed Test
against the initiate’s Intuition + Magic + initiate grade. If they
get fewer hits, they see only the false aura. If they get more hits,
they will see both the illusory aura she provided and her true aura.
To disguise her astral form to look like a spirit or other astrally
active creature, the character must be capable of astral projection.

I agree it doesn't say "invisible" but if the false aura is made to appear that they have "no" aura (i.e. non-existent) then the person would have to make the Opposed test in order to "see" the person. I guess what I'm saying is that fluff text aside, the rule mechanics readily provide a system in which Masking could be used to provide astral invisibility (pending the person being capable of Astral Projection).

- J.

[Dakka Dakka]

Well, depends on the situation. Regular invisibility does not really work. (SEPERATION OF PLANES!)
(Unless you cast it on the astral plane, for which you need to stay dual natured or don't depending on how you read the rules...)

While you could theoretically cast regular invisibility on the astral plane it is absolutely useless. It would hide the astral form of the target but the spel itself would be blatantly obvious. And that does not even address the issue of the target being active on the astral plane.

[Irion]

@Dakka Dakka
Well, it is a matter of interpretation.
If the spell makes you fall out of the perception of the astral observer, it does not matter if he could see the spell. He is "ignoring" everything.
(Or is the guy on the physical plane able to "see" you, because he does not see the stuff behind you... Or because he sees the cloth you are wearing)

But this is a general issue with the description for SR-spell beeing way too short to address how they are supposed to work.
@The Jake

I agree it doesn't say "invisible" but if the false aura is made to appear that they have "no" aura (i.e. non-existent) then the person would have to make the Opposed test in order to "see" the person.

You are jocking right? I mean you yourself say it does not say invisible and in the next sentance you argue you can turn yourself invisible...
Honestly: This would make this metamagic WAY TOO GOOD.
There would be no way in hell to really find astral intruders.

You just need to hide in the "floor". And even if they peak into the floor,(which would requres a lot of time on their hands) and even if they look at the right spot there is at least a 50/50 Chance that they will miss you..

[The Jake]

While you could theoretically cast regular invisibility on the astral plane it is absolutely useless. It would hide the astral form of the target but the spel itself would be blatantly obvious. And that does not even address the issue of the target being active on the astral plane.

Extended Masking would mask the spell. So conceivably:

* Improved Invisibility (sustained) to hide physical presence.
* Masking to hide aura.
* Extended Masking to hide the sustained spell.

If someone has two metamagics (one advanced) and that spell, I don't really see it as game breaking to permit this. Infact, I'm pretty sure the rules were established to permit just that. It's not supposed to be easy.

Although, any free spirit with Aura Masking and Improved Invisibility can do this no problems....

- J.

[Dakka Dakka]

@Dakka Dakka
Well, it is a matter of interpretation.
If the spell makes you fall out of the perception of the astral observer, it does not matter if he could see the spell. He is "ignoring" everything.
(Or is the guy on the physical plane able to "see" you, because he does not see the stuff behind you... Or because he sees the cloth you are wearing)

You are talking about a different problem. You are talking about how the hiding works, I am talking about what is hidden. The target of the spell is hidden, not the spell itself.

@The Jake: Of course, with Extended Masking it would work. Without those two techniques though it is useless.

[The Jake]

You are talking about a different problem. You are talking about how the hiding works, I am talking about what is hidden. The target of the spell is hidden, not the spell itself.

@The Jake: Of course, with Extended Masking it would work. Without those two techniques though it is useless.

Ok. Just saying Udoshi is with the correct IMHO (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I was actually thinking of pulling this trick with my shaman....

- J.

[Irion]

@Dakka Dakka
The question is counts a spell cast on me as "me" and do the cloth I ware count as "me".
I do not know.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

To be fair, I guess this is subject to interpretation. I interpret that it does:



I agree it doesn't say "invisible" but if the false aura is made to appear that they have "no" aura (i.e. non-existent) then the person would have to make the Opposed test in order to "see" the person. I guess what I'm saying is that fluff text aside, the rule mechanics readily provide a system in which Masking could be used to provide astral invisibility (pending the person being capable of Astral Projection).

- J.

You really should read your Book Quote again. In no way does Masking "make you appear as if you had NO Aura." It allows you to make your Aura appear as MUNDANE. Mundane characters still have an aura. And yes, you could use your Extended Masking to cover the spell, so you still look Mundane. But in no way would you be able to erase your Aura. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dakka Dakka]

You really should read your Book Quote again. In no way does Masking "make you appear as if you had NO Aura." It allows you to make your Aura appear as MUNDANE. Mundane characters still have an aura. And yes, you could use your Extended Masking to cover the spell, so you still look Mundane. But in no way would you be able to erase your Aura. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

the regular invisibility spell cast on the astral plane is not for dual natured beings. It is for astral forms. Extended masking incorporates the spell into the astral form and the spell itself conceals the astral form.

[Bigity]

What?

I'm confused on what you are saying here. Are you saying Invisility conceals an aura? Because I don't believe it does, or ever has.