Cyberlimbs and Armor, add, use highest or use average? Options

[Irion]

@Mäx

Meddling with the natural flow of existence, suspending
entropy, and forcefully binding the dissipating energies of a metahuman
spirit to its physical form all send ripples of powerful
and dark emotions into astral space. This means that the local
background count rises throughout the operation, and the
Cleansing metamagic must be employed or the operation might
eventually disrupt the cybermantic ritual. During implantation,
the cybermantic techniques ensure the subject’s spirit does not
depart when the zero Essence threshold is breached. At this point,
the cybermantic ritual forces the spirit to inhabit the empty shell
of its body.

All rules apply untill reaching essence 0. (Because untill this point the cybermancy could be stopped and the patient would "survive")

Please do to not assume I did not read the rules, for it would be foolish.

So it starts with implanting cyberware untill you reach 0, at this point your spirit is bound. Still, you need to loose the essence first.

The only question here is, what happens the second you reach 0. Do the game rules still apply and you loose your last point of magic or not. This would be up to GM Fiat or more so your general approach on using the rules.
Due to the fact, that spirits may also suffer from essence loss, there is actually no reason why the magic-loss should not continue...

[Stahlseele]

Hmm, other Question . .
Max Magic is Essence+Initiation Grade . .
So Initiation Grade of 1 would make 0+1=1 Magic?

[Yerameyahu]

Again, this only matters if you're trying to cheat anyway, but I guess it's an interesting discussion question. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It still seems pretty clear that you go to Ess 0 Mag 0; the rule blurb about 'reduced to 1' is an oversimplification, nothing more. They assumed no one would try to abuse their word-count reduction, I guess. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Draco18s]

No it doesn't, the brain has a stun track, but the drone doesn't.

A brain-in-a-jar that has a "body" that happens to be a drone ends up like any other character:

A physical track and a stun track.

The cyborg doesn't end up being immune to stun.

[Yerameyahu]

The brainjar has a Stun track. Its body is not the cyborg-drone. That's its vehicle, which it is jump-in rigging.

[Draco18s]

The brainjar has a Stun track. Its body is not the cyborg-drone. That's its vehicle, which it is jump-in rigging.

Yes. If you take the brain out, the stun goes with it. That's not my point.

I said that the entire entity is not immune to stun. If vehicles have hardened armor the entire entity would be immune to stun.

You see the difference yet?

[Yerameyahu]

I never claimed that. What I said is that it doesn't matter: the jar in the vehicle can't be directly attacked. It will never take Stun physically from an attack on the vehicle. It is as a remote rigger. There is no 'entire entity'.

If you treated the brainjar as a passenger, you might get something like that, but I say that's unworkable. You'd just get everyone 'headshotting' the CCU constantly, so we'll assume it's designed to remove that option.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

The brain is immune to stun damage done to its vehicle - it takes (stun) biofeedback damage if its vehicle takes physical damage.

[Yerameyahu]

Right, and the vehicle only takes such damage if the attack beats its armor, correct? So it is 'effectively immune to stun', in the same way a vehicle is, and for the same reason. I know Draco18s gets tetchy over precise use of 'hardened' and 'immune', but I'm just saying it's all a wash.

[Draco18s]

I'm at the point at which I need to sit down with Augmentation.

[snowRaven]

@Mäx

All rules apply untill reaching essence 0. (Because untill this point the cybermancy could be stopped and the patient would "survive")

Please do to not assume I did not read the rules, for it would be foolish.

So it starts with implanting cyberware untill you reach 0, at this point your spirit is bound. Still, you need to loose the essence first.

The only question here is, what happens the second you reach 0. Do the game rules still apply and you loose your last point of magic or not. This would be up to GM Fiat or more so your general approach on using the rules.
Due to the fact, that spirits may also suffer from essence loss, there is actually no reason why the magic-loss should not continue...

That doesn't change the fact that Augmentation clearly states that the cybermantic ritual prevents Magic loss from implantation, and clearly states that Resonance abilities are lost but does not mention a word about magical ability being lost, just that magic is reduced to 1. Not to zero and back up. Not to negative and back up. From whatever it is, down to 1.

Also, the ritual must be started before the subject reaches 0 Essence, and performed alongside of implantation.

[Mäx]

Please do to not assume I did not read the rules, for it would be foolish.

I rather assumed you havent read them, then simply that you didn't understand them at all, how foolish of me.

[Irion]

That doesn't change the fact that Augmentation clearly states that the cybermantic ritual prevents Magic loss from implantation, and clearly states that Resonance abilities are lost but does not mention a word about magical ability being lost, just that magic is reduced to 1. Not to zero and back up. Not to negative and back up. From whatever it is, down to 1.

Also, the ritual must be started before the subject reaches 0 Essence, and performed alongside of implantation.

Your attribute is set to one at the end. NOWHERE is stated that any rules do not apply anymore.
If his essence would not drop, he would never go below 0, meaning he would NEVER become a cybercombie...

Well, you know reading the summary is always a bit different from reading the book.

You know what would be great if you were correct: Use cybermancy to not suffer magic loss but do not become a cybercombie. Just stop it at essence 2.01.
Now you have NO magic loss and quite a bit of implants..

[Stahlseele]

*calls aztech-science-mages* get on that stat!

[snowRaven]

Your attribute is set to one at the end. NOWHERE is stated that any rules do not apply anymore.
If his essence would not drop, he would never go below 0, meaning he would NEVER become a cybercombie...

Well, you know reading the summary is always a bit different from reading the book.

You know what would be great if you were correct: Use cybermancy to not suffer magic loss but do not become a cybercombie. Just stop it at essence 2.01.
Now you have NO magic loss and quite a bit of implants..

I didn't read 'the summary', I read the section uner 'side effects of unlife' that is the only place that talks about resonance loss and magic loss, and what magic attribute a cyberzombie ends up with.

Read it again:

"If the character already possessed a Magic attribute, it is permanently reduced to 1. If the character possessed a Resonance attribute, it is permanently reduced to 0 and all technomantic abilities are lost. Due to the cybermantic ritual, the cyberzombie does not suffer Magic loss from implantation, but if the Magic attribute is ever permanently reduced to 0 by other means, the cyberzombie dies."

There is nothing in the SR4 cybermantic rules that state that all magical ability is lost, nor that Magic is first reduced to 0 and then back up to 1 for Awakened individuals. I don't understand how you can interpret 'permanently reduced to 1' to mean 'reduced to 0 and then gained at 1', nor how you can interpret 'the cyberzombie does not suffer Magic loss from implantation' to mean anything but what it it says.

You could probably perform cybermancy on a magician while implanting him or her with cyberware to prevent the magic loss and stop at an Essence of higher than 1. However, since the rituals result in your Magic being permanently reduced to 1 you are kind of screwed anyway - not to mention all the other effects of being a cyberzombie.

[Stahlseele]

Hmm . . technically . . if i throw one cyber zombie at another, they both die right? O.o

[Draco18s]

Hmm . . technically . . if i throw one cyber zombie at another, they both die right? O.o

"permanently reduced"

So their astral hazing would have no effect (or merely put them in comas).

[Stahlseele]

ah, right, overread that . .

[Irion]

@snowRaven

I didn't read 'the summary', I read the section uner 'side effects of unlife' that is the only place that talks about resonance loss and magic loss, and what magic attribute a cyberzombie ends up with.

Well, you probably should start reading at the START of the chapter.
Under Procedure you will find a detailed description of what happens when.
It is like chemical reaction. If you burn hydrogen you "free" energy. This does not mean that there is no activation energy required.

The effects only compare before and after and do not care about in between. Thats what procedure is about.
So if you want to determin if you got to keep your mage quality, you need to read it. Because, well, they missed to say anything under the "effect" section.

Anyway, I actually do not care. It is silly to begin with and it is useless.

Congretulations he is still a magic 1 mage with at most one initiation, with all the drawbacks mentioned. So he will be still a sitting duck to any kind of mage.
So my actual point stands anyhow (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Yeah, you might use foci, in a BC 4. Give me a break. Thats just stupid...

A uncybered ten year old kid with a pair of scissors is more of a thread for a mage than a cybercombie...
Well, I stick with the cyborg. OR 5++ (with some stuff out of WAR very much ++). Only a shadow on the astral plane so he will probably get the drop on the mage.

@Stahlseele
You have to throw them for more than 7P...

[Draco18s]

Congretulations he is still a magic 1 mage with at most one initiation, with all the drawbacks mentioned.

1 initiation raises max magic to 2. ;D
</cheese>

[snowRaven]

@snowRaven

Well, you probably should start reading at the START of the chapter.
Under Procedure you will find a detailed description of what happens when.
It is like chemical reaction. If you burn hydrogen you "free" energy. This does not mean that there is no activation energy required.

The effects only compare before and after and do not care about in between. Thats what procedure is about.
So if you want to determin if you got to keep your mage quality, you need to read it. Because, well, they missed to say anything under the "effect" section.

Anyway, I actually do not care. It is silly to begin with and it is useless.

Congretulations he is still a magic 1 mage with at most one initiation, with all the drawbacks mentioned. So he will be still a sitting duck to any kind of mage.
So my actual point stands anyhow (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Yeah, you might use foci, in a BC 4. Give me a break. Thats just stupid...

A uncybered ten year old kid with a pair of scissors is more of a thread for a mage than a cybercombie...
Well, I stick with the cyborg. OR 5++ (with some stuff out of WAR very much ++). Only a shadow on the astral plane so he will probably get the drop on the mage.

@Stahlseele
You have to throw them for more than 7P...

Yeah, I've read the entire chapter, several times. The fact remains that it clearly states that if you have magic attribute it is reduced to 1. If mages became mundane during the process (as I agree, one would expect, and which was the case in SR3) there wouldn't need to be any mention about it, and the mundane would then get Magic 1 upon awakening - just like anyone else. Nowhere under the procedure does it say anything about magic loss. It doesn't even say that you gain the magic point and become dual natured, so when during the ritual does that happen? The only thing the rules say is that 'upon awakening to her new dual existence' you gain a magic attribute of 1, or get your existing Magic reduced to 1. So, up until that point (which would likely happen at the binding of the soul when Essence reaches 0) Magic apparently stays the same - otherwise, there couldn't be a preexisting Magic attribute to reduce...

I agree that a magician with Magic 1 is seriously gimped; nearly useless. An Adept could be better, though. But it doesn't state anywhere that you lose your magician/adept/mystic adept qualities when your magic is reduced to 1.

[snowRaven]

1 initiation raises max magic to 2. ;D
</cheese>

Except that it says specifically that the Magic rating of a cyberzombie cannot be raised by karma, spirit pact, or in any other way. So, 1 it is an 1 it stays unless you lose it.

[Irion]

@snowRaven
It happens after the awakening. So it is no longer scope of this section.

]So, up until that point (which would likely happen at the binding of the soul when Essence reaches 0) Magic apparently stays the same - otherwise, there couldn't be a preexisting Magic attribute to reduce.

So what happens if I do not go that far? Lets say stop at Essence 2? No magicloss but ware?
If your essence is reduced your magic is reduced. That one of very solid founded rules in Shadowrun.

Well, but hell it does not matter. There is no ruling about it and it is up to the GM. And it is stupid/useless any way.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

If your essence is reduced your magic is reduced. That one of very solid founded rules in Shadowrun.

Just that this rule does not work with a cybermantic ritual, whick locks your magic score permanently at 1. Special rule trumps general rule.

[Irion]

@NiL_FisK_Urd
So what happens if I rescue some guy who is about to become a cybercombie and they only brought him down to 3 Essenz?
If he had Ressonance did he loose it all?
If he had magic, did loose anything? Or everything but the last point?
Is he now dual natured.

Well, I do prefere rules which work for that part.
The only way I would ever bring up a cybermancy ritual is probably something the antagonists do. So if the players manage to stop it, I would prefere it, if the universe would not implode...