Cyberlimbs and Armor, add, use highest or use average? Options

[Dakka Dakka]

2 obvious lower legs (alpha) with hydraulic jacks (6) and a combined +6 armor for .72 essence?

Someone else would have to prevent me from taking that on my Adept and thus saving up on several levels of great leap and free falling and also get the free armor, because i certainly would not be able to overcome my powergaming tendencies in the eye of such blatant discrepancies.

Well you could jump far/high but you would not have very much control. Unless you further invest in your cyberlegs you will have a STR, AGI and BOD of 3. More importantly any test involving the legs would either require you to use the average of all involved limbs or the minimum of your physical stats.

Well, because armor actually does not stack in general. (But I have to say I do not see it like this in this particular situation)
But this would be the argument.

No, worn armor does not stack, unless there is a rule saying otherwise.

@Mäx
From a rule point of few:
One source of augmentation (be it magical or technological) won't stack with itself.
Twice muscle augmentation: The higher one counts.
Twice orthoskin: The higher one counts.
Two sets of armor: The higher one counts.

I know that there is a general consensus of the rules working like that, but I don't remember actually seeing it in the rules. There are specific rules for things stacking or not stacking with other things, but I am not aware of a general rule saying something like D&D's "bonuses of the same type do not stack".
AFAIK you can easily stack 3, 5 or 10 armor spells on the same target. A rule saying "A stacks with B" does not say "A does not stack with A".

[Chinane]

Whats so complicated about cyberlimb armor, the rules clearly state that it's cumulative with worn armor(in other words it adds to worn armor).
If you have 2 limbs with armor, both of them are cumulative with worn armor.

Irion already explained it, but also from a linguistic point of view:

If the rules stated 'it is cumulative and cumulative with worn armor' we would not have this discussion. The omission of two words causes all the difference.

[Dakka Dakka]

Read my post above. Unless there is a general rule saying something is "not cumulative with itself" it is. Bonuses generally stack unless specified otherwise.

[Chinane]

AFAIK you can easily stack 3, 5 or 10 armor spells on the same target.

I would expect that you'd find even LESS people here that agree with you that multiple armor spells of all things, STACK.
How much armor would Lofwyr have, considering it would certainly be corporate policy to always keep up an armor spell on him for every single SK mage?
(So your nuclear bomb causes 1000P damage? Let me just take my few thousand dice and roll half my armor on that...)


Funnily, the problem is precisely the same, the rules only say that it stacks with WORN armor.
So what about cyber armor? Does the spell scan its target and leave a number of holes based on its levels of orthoskin?

Even mystic armor only states that it stacks with WORN armor and you'd have the same rule vacuum there.


Funny, seems as i the loopholes were actually left on purpose because the developers couldn't agree on a unified approach.

[Chinane]

Read my post above. Unless there is a general rule saying something is "not cumulative with itself" it is. Bonuses generally stack unless specified otherwise.

How can you even write an axiomatic statement like that without giving a clear rules reference and not shoot yourself..or at least cringe?

Where does it say bonuses generally stack unless specified otherwise?
The general red line through all the rules is that bonuses very RARELY stack and even then there is often a maximum to achievable augmentations.

[Chinane]

Well you could jump far/high but you would not have very much control. Unless you further invest in your cyberlegs you will have a STR, AGI and BOD of 3. More importantly any test involving the legs would either require you to use the average of all involved limbs or the minimum of your physical stats.

Customizing doesn't cost any essence. Nuyen costs were not addressed because they are insignificant in this scenario, being so low.

Also we're talking about only half limbs here, which severly reduces the number of situations where averaging or minimum rules apply (and your average mage will probably look FORWARD to those, as his customized limbs will have better stats than the remainder of his body).

[Irion]

@Dakka Dakka

I know that there is a general consensus of the rules working like that, but I don't remember actually seeing it in the rules. There are specific rules for things stacking or not stacking with other things, but I am not aware of a general rule saying something like D&D's "bonuses of the same type do not stack".
AFAIK you can easily stack 3, 5 or 10 armor spells on the same target. A rule saying "A stacks with B" does not say "A does not stack with A".

I have to look if they did not write something like that as a general rule...
The point is, that this rule is (in general) supposed to exist even if not written down.
Does not work without it. For example getting twice muscle toner 3 would give you 6 points of agility.
You brought some examples for magic...


In general you can't write a game without this rule. (Or you will be forced to write down at every skill, spell, equipment: Does not stack with itself and/or can't be taken twice)

@Chinane

Funny, seems as i the loopholes were actually left on purpose because the developers couldn't agree on a unified approach.

There are two possible approaches to the subject in general:
1. Known from DnD: Give every bonus a class and tell what is stacking with what.
2. Everything stacks in general and every spell(and/or spells in general) and piece of equipment(and/or in general) has a list on what it may be used with/on.

Shadowrun has neither. It is not so much that they could not agree in one or two subjects, this entire section is missing...
(At some skills you find the: Can be only taken once phrase, though.)

Normally this is not a problem. Nobody would suggest two tacnets raiting 4 give a bonus of 8.
But with cyberlegs or even spells, there is no real argument to be made on how they should work. Both approaches seem to be off in certain situation.
Take the avarage makes them kind of weak. Add up maks them extreamly strong and additional limps give additional armor. Kind of strange...

And we have here the same discussion about geneware and bioware...

[Chinane]

Yeah, i've also been looking for a rule that (apart from common sense) says you cannot just take the same cyber-/bioware twice. I could not find it so far.

Looks like common sense is still somewhat required. I'm not sure if that is reassuring or worrying, given the amount of it some people show (or rather, don't).

[Dakka Dakka]

I would expect that you'd find even LESS people here that agree with you that multiple armor spells of all things, STACK.
How much armor would Lofwyr have, considering it would certainly be corporate policy to always keep up an armor spell on him for every single SK mage?
(So your nuclear bomb causes 1000P damage? Let me just take my few thousand dice and roll half my armor on that...)

That is one of the reasons why you do not screw with dragons.

Funnily, the problem is precisely the same, the rules only say that it stacks with WORN armor.
So what about cyber armor? Does the spell scan its target and leave a number of holes based on its levels of orthoskin?

Even mystic armor only states that it stacks with WORN armor and you'd have the same rule vacuum there.


Funny, seems as i the loopholes were actually left on purpose because the developers couldn't agree on a unified approach.

You are assuming a lot. You adssume that the rules were deliberately left unclear to support your opinion. Assuming anything hte developers might have thought while writing the rules is absolutely pointless, as we have no way of confirming it.

The only place where armor does not stack is with worn armor. All other armor items/powers add armor. If one adds armor you need an explicit rule saying another one of the same type does not or that such an item/power can only be added once, if you want that item not to be cumulative.


Assuming there is a "a does no stack with A rule", how do powers like Combat Sense or mystic Armor work? Do you keep rating one and have to buy rating 2( for a cost of 2*rating 1) and so on? I doubt that is what the developers meant. So at least these two indeed stack with themselves.

@Chinane: Why are you arbitrarily ignoring part of the cost?

[Irion]

@Dakka Dakka
The only place where it is told it does not stack...
In every other instance it is only told to stack with worn armor.

If you go by the line "it is allowed what is written" it is to assume certain kinds of armor do not stack with each other.

Assuming there is a "a does no stack with A rule", how do powers like Combat Sense or mystic Armor work? Do you keep rating one and have to buy rating 2( for a cost of 2*rating 1) and so on? I doubt that is what the developers meant. So at least these two indeed stack with themselves.

They have a RAITING meaning you do not have two raiting one powers but one raiting 2 powers . The question would be: Would you allow an adept with magic 3 to have two times raiting 3 combat reflexes for a +6 to reaction tests...

[Chinane]

Assuming there is a "a does no stack with A rule", how do powers like Combat Sense or mystic Armor work? Do you keep rating one and have to buy rating 2( for a cost of 2*rating 1) and so on? I doubt that is what the developers meant. So at least these two indeed stack with themselves.

The whole point of introducing ratings in the first place is, that - as a general rule - powers/cyber _without_ a rating cannot be taken multiple times.

Sorry mate, but it seems you lack a fundamental understanding of the basic rules, so it might be wise to get a general feeling for the rules before participating in discussions about the finer points.

Makes me wonder if in your group people are running around with multiple trauma dampers.

[Dakka Dakka]

@Irion: Sure they have ratings, but there is no rule that you can give adept powers back. So first you have Combat Sense 1 (which costs 0.5 PP) then you want to get combat Sense 2 (1 PP). Since you say combat sense does not stack with itself and you cannot give combat sense back you have to buy combat sense 2, leaving you with 1.5 spent PP and +2 to certain tests. I'm sure this is not what anyone intended, but it is the logical application of a general "A does not stack with A" rule combined with the lack of a rule for giving back adept powers.

@Chinane: I never said, that I play that way. My point is that you are making assumptions that are not in the rules, to prove your point. I agree that it is nonsense to take 4 Muscle Toners rating 1 instead of Muscle toner 4, but by RAW there is nothing preventing you from doing this, unless you provide written proof.

To sum up:

-cumulative cyberlimb armor is very effective maybe too effective, but it does not create weird situations.
-averaged armor makes that form a very ineffective enhancement, especially with rounding down. You would need 1point of armor in every one of the six limbs to get one point of armor.
-only maximum armor counts creates weird situations. I armor one leg and get +4 armor, armoring the other 5 limbs as well does not provide any bonus.

[Chinane]

To sum up:

-cumulative cyberlimb armor is very effective maybe too effective, but it does not create weird situations.
-averaged armor makes that form a very ineffective enhancement, especially with rounding down. You would need 1point of armor in every one of the six limbs to get one point of armor.
-only maximum armor counts creates weird situations. I armor one leg and get +4 armor, armoring the other 5 limbs as well does not provide any bonus.

The thing is, we've already been there.

Most people agree that
1) is too strong and opens loopholes for abuse,
2) too expensive but in stride with alternative augmentations towards the same goal (too weak/expensive would also be thematically correct for cyberlimb history over editions, btw)
3) awkward

In the light of a blatant rule vacuum however, any of those 3 would be a valid interpretation of the rules.
(2+3 even more so than 1, since at least there is precedence for those other than anecdotal evidence, i.e. 'XX said...')

@Chinane: I never said, that I play that way. My point is that you are making assumptions that are not in the rules, to prove your point. I agree that it is nonsense to take 4 Muscle Toners rating 1 instead of Muscle toner 4, but by RAW there is nothing preventing you from doing this, unless you provide written proof.

I'm not even trying to force a point, my initial request was for someone to come up with a definitive ruling and I only outlined the _possible_ interpretations as outlined above. My personal opinion is that houseruling is required here anyway, something along the lines of what Yera suggested.

So I don't have a personal agenda here towards a specific goal other than showing that the rule in this area is not as clear as some people seem to think.

[Irion]

@Dakka Dakka

-cumulative cyberlimb armor is very effective maybe too effective, but it does not create weird situations.

Well, it does. Adding a pair of limps and your armor goes up...

I'm sure this is not what anyone intended, but it is the logical application of a general "A does not stack with A" rule combined with the lack of a rule for giving back adept powers.

Well, skills do not stack neither but they are upgradeable. Twice longarms 2 does not give you longarms 4. But you may increase longarms 2 to longarms 4...

And as it stands in the rules allow you to buy levels of this power. And the levels do stack due to the description of the power.
Example:

Each level of Critical Strike increases the character’s
Damage Value in unarmed combat by +1.

The character gains one die
per level for Reaction on Surprise Tests and when defending
against ranged and melee attacks.

[Dakka Dakka]

Well, it does. Adding a pair of limps and your armor goes up...

Are you being ironic? If not, I really do not know what you mean.

Well, skills do not stack neither but they are upgradeable. Twice longarms 2 does not give you longarms 4. But you may increase longarms 2 to longarms 4...

True, but longarms 2 gives you longarms 2, obviously. It does not give you +2 to longarms tests. Cyberlimb armor adds armor. If there is more than a normal addition, there needs to be a rule about it.

And as it stands in the rules allow you to buy levels of this power. And the levels do stack due to the description of the power.

I did not dispute that. However without a rule allowing you to give back rating 1 (and getting the power points back) all you can do is buy rating 2 and wasting the power points of rating 1.

BTW how is cyberlimb armor in the right lower leg the same as cyberlimb armor in the left leg?

[Mäx]

@Mäx
From a rule point of view:
One source of augmentation (be it magical or technological) won't stack with itself.
Twice muscle augmentation: The higher one counts.
Twice orthoskin: The higher one counts.
Two sets of armor: The higher one counts.

Your making generalisations that aren't in the rules.
And multiple limbs with cybere armor are explicit part of the rules, where as 2 times muscle toner or orthoskin while it isn't explicitly forbidden makes no sense what so ever(how do you instal same thing a second time, the first installation is allready there taking up the place)

[Mäx]

god damm lack of flood protection (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

[Irion]

@Mäx

And multiple limbs with cybere armor are explicit part of the rules, where as 2 times muscle toner or orthoskin while it isn't explicitly forbidden makes no sense what so ever(how do you instal same thing a second time, the first installation is allready there taking up the place)

This depends on the augmentation. We had this exact discussion with using genware and bioware. The only argument against it was: Boni out of the same source do not stack.

@Dakka Dakka

I did not dispute that. However without a rule allowing you to give back rating 1 (and getting the power points back) all you can do is buy rating 2 and wasting the power points of rating 1.

Nope, because you buy levels. They are not in order and the rules state that they stack, so they stack.
So you actually buy 4 levels of critical strike and the rules tell you that they stack. Since special rule overwrites general rule, they do stack. So no problem there, no matter how you rule it.
Actually I was wrong too. Since you are limited on the amounts of level you may buy. (So no matter how you decide in general terms, those powers work perfectly)

The only power which has to be upgraded is increased reflexes. And well, here you are fucked no matter which interpretation you use, since you need to get a "refund" for your prior power anyway... Unless you want to pay 2 powerpoints for each raiting, buying three times raiting 1.

Are you being ironic? If not, I really do not know what you mean.

Have a guy with shiva arms and add 4 points of armor in each additional arm. Now this guy is armored harder than before but still each of his limps has a raiting of 4.
Or remove one cyber arm and loose 4 points of armor...

[Dakka Dakka]

Have a guy with shiva arms and add 4 points of armor in each additional arm. Now this guy is armored harder than before but still each of his limps has a raiting of 4.
Or remove one cyber arm and loose 4 points of armor...

Well if you wear a leather jacket you have 2 armor, if you put on a MilSpec helmet you are better protected than before, but each item only has 2 armor. Where is the problem?

[Medicineman]

Most people agree that
1) is too strong and opens loopholes for abuse,

I don't think that most People agree with that.

Hough!
Medicineman

[Irion]

@Dakka Dakka

Well if you wear a leather jacket you have 2 armor, if you put on a MilSpec helmet you are better protected than before, but each item only has 2 armor. Where is the problem?

What happens if you put another Milspec helmet on each shoulder? The rules for cyberarmor would say you get additional +4...

[UmaroVI]

I don't think that most People agree with that.

Hough!
Medicineman

Well, pretty much everyone agrees that armor on hands and feet is bad. Barring that, people usually mean "it's not a mage so it shouldn't be that good."

[Medicineman]

Well, pretty much everyone agrees that armor on hands and feet is bad

Yeah, thats Imbalanced ImO too
but according to what I read in different (english & German )Forums
Quite a few people are OK with Cyberlimbs adding their Armor with worn Armor and that a Protection Pool of 20 Dice or a Soak Pool of 30 Dice is not "over the Top"

Thats why I doubt that "most People Agree that Cyberarmor is too Strong"
It reminds me Of Politicians that simply assume sth.
(hope you get the Meaning ?!) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Hough!
Medicineman

[Dakka Dakka]

What happens if you put another Milspec helmet on each shoulder? The rules for cyberarmor would say you get additional +4...

If it weren't for the rules for worn armor and encumbrance that would work.

[Irion]

@Medicineman
High soak pools do not come up in normal groups, because an all cybered character es nearly impossible to build.
You need around one million to make him work in order to have some spare essence for important stuff like Reaction and INI-Passes.
For which you have to pay extra...
Not to mention, that this guy is severly limited in social interactions.
He is a walking: Lets call backup sign.
But the mage with 4-8 points additional cyberarmor, might be frowned upon...


@Dakka Dakka
Depends on: Does a bonus from the same source stack?
With your interpretation it works, with mine it does not.

@UmaroVI
I guess that hits it dead centre.