Cyberlimbs and Armor, add, use highest or use average? Options

[Mäx]

@Mäx

This depends on the augmentation. We had this exact discussion with using genware and bioware. The only argument against it was: Boni out of the same source do not stack.

You mean the one that completdly ignores half of the rules text for trangenetic animal features?
You can't get any bioware with that, that would cause a situation like this to come up.

[Medicineman]

High soak pools do not come up in normal groups, because an all cybered character es nearly impossible to build.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)
Well, One of my Chars is All-Cybered-up
(Legs,Arms,Torso,Skull,Eyes,Ears) and yes he started very weak and I needed all the Resources and the first 50 Karma were an ordeal
but now (after ca 100 Karma) he's the Teams Tank with 20 Pts Cyberarmor, a Soakpool of ca 36 Dice and 2 IPs and quite a capable Sam
ImO its not nearly impossible but it requires some "tinkering" and Min/Maxing

HokaHey
Medicineman

[Chinane]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)
Well, One of my Chars is All-Cybered-up
(Legs,Arms,Torso,Skull,Eyes,Ears) and yes he started very weak and I needed all the Resources and the first 50 Karma were an ordeal
but now (after ca 100 Karma) he's the Teams Tank with 20 Pts Cyberarmor, a Soakpool of ca 36 Dice and 2 IPs and quite a capable Sam
ImO its not nearly impossible but it requires some "tinkering" and Min/Maxing

HokaHey
Medicineman

So I assume you're not ever running in corp land, as according to that philosophy it must be full of robocops doing the same with beta/deltaware?

[Yerameyahu]

Quite a few people are OK with Cyberlimbs adding their Armor with worn Armor and that a Protection Pool of 20 Dice or a Soak Pool of 30 Dice is not "over the Top"

If they're okay with that, then they're not people. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

These are all issues we've been annoyed about in the past: stacking Armor spells with itself, stacking drugs with themselves, stacking 'ware with themselves, etc. I sense a theme. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Stahlseele]

So I assume you're not ever running in corp land, as according to that philosophy it must be full of robocops doing the same with beta/deltaware?

For a Corp it's not cost-efficient to do that.
For a single Mercenary wanting to stay alive no matter what it certainly is.

And as an aside on the Beta/Delta-Full-Replacement:
Have you SEEN Cyber-Zombies?

[Dakka Dakka]

So I assume you're not ever running in corp land, as according to that philosophy it must be full of robocops doing the same with beta/deltaware?

Corps have acces to Jarheads. I doubt a full limb replacement will be the worst of your problems, if you seriously piss them off. The other point (and that goes for jarheads as well at least for adult brains) is whether you actually find skilled people who are willing to do this. Sociopaths who shoot people for money might be more inclined to a full limb replacement.

@Yerameyahu: at least for drugs there are rules for overdosing and speedballing. So it is indeed intended to work but with added consequences.

[Yerameyahu]

Not necessarily. Overdosing seems to be about toxins (and they're a slap on the wrist (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) ), and speedballing is specifically combining *different* drugs. I'm fine with speedballing, but Cram-stacking is unclear and exploitive, given the penalties. Some people even say you only suffer the crash *once*, facrissake.

[Dakka Dakka]

I'm pretty sure that you can find different drugs that do the same thing. Then it depends on the wording. If something gives +X to Property A it stacks, if one grants rating Y of property B and the other rating Z of Property B only the highest rating applies.

For example Betel and eX taken together should give +2 Perception whereas as a speedball of Kamikaze and Nitro would only grant High Pain Tolerance 6, not 9.

[Chinane]

For a Corp it's not cost-efficient to do that.
For a single Mercenary wanting to stay alive no matter what it certainly is.

Have you seen robocop?

Behave or we'll send (one of our) robocop(s) is psychologically a much better deterrent than threatening with your regular SWAT team.
Also you're saving on a lot of money for replacing and training your more vulnerable staff - which will also be treated more nicely because of the robocop threat.

And then at least a few of the corpse actually manufacture that stuff, so they can equip their robocops at cost.

And as an aside on the Beta/Delta-Full-Replacement:
Have you SEEN Cyber-Zombies?

Why bother with all the overhead of creating cyber zombies when your regular robocop is a walking tank?

[Stahlseele]

Because robocop can be flattened by chem-tech, tasers and magic and a cyber-zombie usually can't.

[Yerameyahu]

I think I just said that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The issue is whether the same thing stacks with itself.

Even with speedballing, it's rules over logic; Kamikaze and Nitro probably *should* give more pain tolerance than either alone. On the other hand, should kamikaze stack with any of its component drugs? Good times. The goal is for the GM to not have to deal with eyeballing this stuff.

[Medicineman]

So I assume you're not ever running in corp land, as according to that philosophy it must be full of robocops doing the same with beta/deltaware?

No
His Dayjob is Taxidriver in the Barrens or in "E"Areas (with an armored Taxi)
or Soldier of Fortune
He keeps away from A+ Areas unless absolutely necessary and has all neccessary Licences for his 'ware and a Background to keep up

???
Beta and Deltaware is usually (in my SR World) reserved for Elite and Covered Ops Teams. Cops have standard or Alphaware
SWAT-Teams might have (seldom) Betaware.
There might exist Robocop but he's rare ,extremely rare

He who dances in the Barrens
Medicineman

[Sengir]

Which is why that was ONE of the suggested approaches to the rule vacuum. There is nothing like 'treat this as worn armor' because there is nothing. Period.



I think you should have invested a little bit of karma into the reading comprehension skill and less into pointless provocations.

I explicitely stated that both the pear and ball are objects you know.
Which was the whole point of the exercise in creating a similar scenario like the one we're faced with regarding cyberlimb armor rules, in the hopes you'd then understand it.

In other words, you still can provide neither a reason why cyber armor has to be be treated analogously to attributes, worn armor, or something else, nor can you explain why worn armor should not be treated analogously to something else -- a bit inconsequential, hm?

[Irion]

@Sengir
Come on, he did it for several pages now.
But yes, if you assume that trolls are able to fly, he did not. (See, can do the same)

[Chinane]

In other words, you still can provide neither a reason why cyber armor has to be be treated analogously to attributes, worn armor, or something else, nor can you explain why worn armor should not be treated analogously to something else -- a bit inconsequential, hm?

I don't need to provide reasons for something that's not my statement, like 'x HAS TO BE y'.

I provided reasons why cyberlimb armor COULD be treated like CL attributes (via an analogy) OR like worn amor (via another analogy), given the absence of any specific guideline in RAW how to treat it.

Rules of behaviour based on analogies are the fundamental principle of our life, otherwise you could never buy 3 apples unless specifically being taught how to buy 3 apples, since you're pointedly ignoring the similarity to buying 4 apples or 3 pears and deducting from there.

Neither of my observations provided any foundation for a clearly defined relation like a>b and b>c, therefore a>c, even less a function. Therfore applying your rules of deduction is neither justified nor allowed. (FYI, the similarity is more like a>b and a>c which allows no conclusion about the relative size of b vs c)

[Mäx]

Why bother with all the overhead of creating cyber zombies when your regular robocop is a walking tank?

Robocop is a tank if by robocop you mean an actual cyborg in a drone body, as those have hardened armor.
But cyber zombie while not a real tank, is much better agains mages(that most shadowrunner teams have at least 1).
And ofcource both of them are better then just some dupe with 6 cyberlimbs.

[Irion]

@Mäx
No, actually he is not. For the mage may attack him from the astral plane. Spirits will have 3 passes against him and so on.

The cyborg is a bit better agaisnt mages, because on the astral plane the mage might just overlook the cyborg. And on the physical plane he has to deal with an object resistance of 5+.

[Stahlseele]

The Cyber-Zombie has Astral hazing, hardened armor in terms of his negative essence i think and gets higher attributes with more negtive essence.
All of them i think. Including willpower, which is used to resist magic. Which the Astral hazing makes, at least a bit, easier.

[Chinane]

Robocop is a tank if by robocop you mean an actual cyborg in a drone body, as those have hardened armor.
But cyber zombie while not a real tank, is much better agains mages(that most shadowrunner teams have at least 1).
And ofcource both of them are better then just some dupe with 6 cyberlimbs.

Both are intentionally better and follow special rules which efficiently prevent playing them as characters.

How good hardened armor is depends a lot on circumstances. Once i get enough DV, the fact that its hardened loses significance
while the soaking dice depend on said armor. I'm not very familiar with drones, but the maximum off the shelf in arsenal is 12 armor
and those are vehicles, so I would expect the typical anthroform to be maximum 8? Which only highlights the problem, since the full machine
can soak with only a third of our robocop's dice once something gets through.

And of course the cyber zombie can have the same armor as our robocop, since he's basically robocop + something added.
He's a ton of pain to create and control though AFAIK.

[Sengir]

I provided reasons why cyberlimb armor COULD be treated like CL attributes (via an analogy) OR like worn amor (via another analogy), given the absence of any specific guideline in RAW how to treat it.

Uhm, no. You insisted that cyberlimb armor SHOULD be analogously to other stuff, unless RAW says it isn't. If we accept that reasoning, then it obviously applies the everything else. You can't claim "unevenly distributed cyberlimb armor acts like cyberlimb attributes, but unevenly distributed normal armor does not act like unevenly distributed cyberlimb attributes" without providing a reason WHY your reasoning only applies to the first case but not to the second.

Rules of behaviour based on analogies are the fundamental principle of our life

Just that we are not talking about life. Firing a burst from a rifle is pretty much analogous to firing the same caliber on semi-auto, but uses different skills. Firing a mortar is nothing like firing an MG, but both use the same skill...

[Draco18s]

Just that we are not talking about life. Firing a burst from a rifle is pretty much analogous to firing the same caliber on semi-auto, but uses different skills. Firing a mortar is nothing like firing an MG, but both use the same skill...

Shotguns and sniper rifles.

[Mäx]

@Mäx
No, actually he is not. For the mage may attack him from the astral plane. Spirits will have 3 passes against him and so on.

The cyborg is a bit better agaisnt mages, because on the astral plane the mage might just overlook the cyborg. And on the physical plane he has to deal with an object resistance of 5+.

Umm the Zombie has Astral hazing, very high willpower and can be mage himself with counterspelling 6 and a force 6 shielding focus.

How good hardened armor is depends a lot on circumstances. Once i get enough DV, the fact that its hardened loses significance
while the soaking dice depend on said armor. I'm not very familiar with drones, but the maximum off the shelf in arsenal is 12 armor
and those are vehicles, so I would expect the typical anthroform to be maximum 8? Which only highlights the problem, since the full machine
can soak with only a third of our robocop's dice once something gets through.

Tomino has 10 body and can be modded to have 20 armor, so thats 30 soak dice(hardly just a third of full conversions soak pool) and doesn't have to care at all about any damage value less then 20P.

[Chinane]

Tomino has 10 body and can be modded to have 20 armor, so thats 30 soak dice(hardly just a third of full conversions soak pool) and doesn't have to care at all about any damage value less then 20P.

Sounds like the problem is within the modding rules then, as the off-the-shelf probe looks pretty reasonable for a 24R drone with (due to it's bulk) limited use.
Also considering it is apparently purely cyborg.

[Yerameyahu]

The tomino is a mech, though, right? It shouldn't even have arms, just miniguns. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) No cybered metahuman should ever come close.

[Chinane]

The tomino is a mech, though, right? It shouldn't even have arms, just miniguns. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) No cybered metahuman should ever come close.

Coincidentally, 20 is also the maximum armor you can put on ANY vehicle.

Seems a bit strange that our robocop should be allowed to exceed that.