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> Chummer Character Generator, Thread #2
Savar
post Feb 22 2012, 01:54 AM
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QUOTE (Nebular @ Feb 21 2012, 07:21 PM) *
I don't see anything that needs to be added for this, unless there's something extra beyond the content found in the sidebar on UN 137-138. These all seem to modify the behaviour of how other devices react to them (cannot crash, conditional bonus on Defense Tests, increased threshold for Matrix Perception Test against them, Track is immune to Spoof, etc.) and don't appear to affect any of the Technomancer's actual abilities (no dice pool modifications or other modifiers).



ugh I can not find it now.

It was about how Complex forms would be learned like spells. I am trying to find the reference again.
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SpellBinder
post Feb 22 2012, 03:26 AM
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That, I think, is an optional approach to TM's that I've seen other users here talk about. As I recall, nothing like that is discussed in Unwired or any other game book.

Best way to try and replicate this in Chummer would be to set the BP for a complex form to 2 and the karma to 5 and never increase a complex form beyond level 1.
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ShadowWalker
post Feb 22 2012, 03:36 AM
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QUOTE (Nebular @ Feb 21 2012, 08:15 PM) *
There's nothing in any of the books that I can find that says that Audio Enhancements or Vision Enhancements consume 1 Capacity per Rating. The closest it gets is found on SR4 333 under Audio Sensors & Enhancers: "The rating of such devices equals the number of audio enhancements they can be fitted with." So Rating 2 Earbuds should be able to hold 2 different Audio Enhancements, regardless of their Rating. Vision Enhancements already worked this way - Audio Enhancements were the odd ones out for some reason and were corrected in my most recent update of the Gear file.

They were the odd ones out because a more recent printing had them costing their rating in capacity. This was not the case with Vision enhancements which were not changed.
Sadly this is not in the recent errata for the SR4A book, even though there are differences in the printings saying this.
It's in the old thread somewhere.
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ShadowWalker
post Feb 22 2012, 03:37 AM
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QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Feb 21 2012, 10:26 PM) *
That, I think, is an optional approach to TM's that I've seen other users here talk about. As I recall, nothing like that is discussed in Unwired or any other game book.

Best way to try and replicate this in Chummer would be to set the BP for a complex form to 2 and the karma to 5 and never increase a complex form beyond level 1.


I have read this in one of the optional rules, with a quick glance I didn't see it, but I know it's there somewhere.
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Savar
post Feb 22 2012, 03:50 AM
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QUOTE (ShadowWalker @ Feb 21 2012, 09:37 PM) *
I have read this in one of the optional rules, with a quick glance I didn't see it, but I know it's there somewhere.


finally found it

its under Tweaking the Rules pg 39 unwired

Complex Forms
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SpellBinder
post Feb 22 2012, 03:56 AM
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Edit: Nevermind
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ShadowWalker
post Feb 22 2012, 05:19 AM
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QUOTE (Savar @ Feb 21 2012, 10:50 PM) *
finally found it

its under Tweaking the Rules pg 39 unwired

Complex Forms

The one thing that they don't talk about is what Threading does, since it would no longer be needed.
Only use I could see it having with this option is with the widgets or biowire echoes
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Hellfire
post Feb 22 2012, 10:06 AM
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Hello,
thanks for the latest update!

when designing a few NSC for my latest game I stumbled upon a few glitches that are not really flaws but more of "room for improvement":
1. when you design a critter (in this case a spirit) you are not able to add a new skill with a rating of force if the initial force is >6, also you are not able to improve the skill beyond rating 6 in career mode
2. also currently there is no possibility to create a free spirit critter/NSC, only as a player character, and you cannot create those with a force greater than 6, which leads back to the problem in no. 1 that you are unable to improve skills beyond rating 6 in career mode. However due to the rules when/how spirits become free it is more likely that free spirits are > force 6. So it would be great if you could add the option when creating a spirit/critter to make him "free" (checkbox or something) and then being able to select powers from the "free spirit power" list

something completely different:
the ranges of the Defiance T250 shotgun (the normal version, not the short barreled version) are wrong, they are currently the same as the short barreled version and should be as any other shotgun.

thanks for your great work (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) , I have recommended your char gen in my gaming group and now everybody is using it!
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Sengir
post Feb 22 2012, 11:58 AM
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QUOTE (Nebular @ Feb 22 2012, 02:15 AM) *
There's nothing in any of the books that I can find that says that Audio Enhancements or Vision Enhancements consume 1 Capacity per Rating. The closest it gets is found on SR4 333 under Audio Sensors & Enhancers: "The rating of such devices equals the number of audio enhancements they can be fitted with."

A bit below that, under the heading "AUDIO ENHANCEMENTS" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And I just checked my German DTF copy (which would presumably be equal to the first printing), it clearly says "per Rating", too.
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ShadowWalker
post Feb 22 2012, 01:17 PM
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QUOTE (Sengir @ Feb 22 2012, 06:58 AM) *
A bit below that, under the heading "AUDIO ENHANCEMENTS" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And I just checked my German DTF copy (which would presumably be equal to the first printing), it clearly says "per Rating", too.

There are differences, the first printing I have excludes the per rating bit.
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Nebular
post Feb 22 2012, 02:03 PM
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QUOTE (Sengir @ Feb 22 2012, 05:58 AM) *
A bit below that, under the heading "AUDIO ENHANCEMENTS" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And I just checked my German DTF copy (which would presumably be equal to the first printing), it clearly says "per Rating", too.

*gurgle* Do Video Enhancements have the same "per Rating" bit as well, or does it only apply to Audio Enhancements? I'd think it would be pretty strange if one did and the other didn't...
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ShadowWalker
post Feb 22 2012, 04:02 PM
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QUOTE (Nebular @ Feb 22 2012, 09:03 AM) *
*gurgle* Do Video Enhancements have the same "per Rating" bit as well, or does it only apply to Audio Enhancements? I'd think it would be pretty strange if one did and the other didn't...

Nope, only audio has this change that's not in the errata.

Right now Chummer is working the way it's supposed to be, according to raw in this regard.
Audio costs per rating, video per item.
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Tashiro
post Feb 22 2012, 04:22 PM
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QUOTE (ShadowWalker @ Feb 22 2012, 12:19 AM) *
The one thing that they don't talk about is what Threading does, since it would no longer be needed.
Only use I could see it having with this option is with the widgets or biowire echoes


Threading would allow you to use a complex form you don't have, and set the maximum 'force' you would be able to use it at I figure - or increase the maximum 'force' for a complex form you already have, or to add 'options' to your complex forms - such as ergonomic.

If you have, for example, Shield, and your Resonance is 4, your maximum for it is eight. With threading, you could allow say that three Hits allows you to treat your maximum as 11. The fading might suck though when you throw down that hard. Hmm... I'll have to think about this more, that could be cool for mages as well.
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Chinane
post Feb 22 2012, 05:22 PM
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QUOTE (ShadowWalker @ Feb 22 2012, 05:02 PM) *
Nope, only audio has this change that's not in the errata.

Right now Chummer is working the way it's supposed to be, according to raw in this regard.
Audio costs per rating, video per item.


I've got 20th anniversary rules and it says about audio enhancers:
'The rating of such devices equals the number of audio enhancements they can
be fitted with.'

The audio enhancements themselves make no mention of capacity at all.
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ChatNoir
post Feb 22 2012, 05:48 PM
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The french SR4A is also different. Both Audio and Video Enhancements have [Rating] in the Capacity colomn and nothing about that in the Errata. I'll ask the translators what is the latest information they have from Catalyst.

EDIT : ok, I did find a previous discusion launch by Jazz about that and in the end it can be summarized like that :"there is something strange but the developpers need to be clearer on their documents / erratas. We can't choose which on is correct for them"
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Sengir
post Feb 22 2012, 06:05 PM
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QUOTE (ShadowWalker @ Feb 22 2012, 02:17 PM) *
There are differences, the first printing I have excludes the per rating bit.

Hmm, just "found" a copy of the first printing and indeed neither the 1st printing of the Anniversary Ed nor the original BBB have that sentence. But my German DTF from December 2009 already has the change...and since the new printings have it too, I'd say it is official (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

PS:
QUOTE (ChatNoir @ Feb 22 2012, 06:48 PM) *
EDIT : ok, I did find a previous discusion launch by Jazz about that and in the end it can be summarized like that :"there is something strange but the developpers need to be clearer on their documents / erratas. We can't choose which on is correct for them"

So there already was an errata document incorporated into the foreign first printings? Interesting...

Anyway, looks like the best solution would be an option in Chummer.
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ChatNoir
post Feb 22 2012, 07:23 PM
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Yep, the french version includes some of the first erratas. Don't know if there are some other stuff after my print.
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ShadowWalker
post Feb 22 2012, 07:33 PM
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We had this discussion long ago in the old chummer threat.
Visual enhancements use capacity by item, Audio Enhancements use their rating.
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SpellBinder
post Feb 22 2012, 07:44 PM
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I think I'll just write myself an override file for the audio enhancements and call it good, then.
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Nebular
post Feb 22 2012, 08:18 PM
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What a freaking mess. I'd say this is hard to believe, but after the Street Magic and Arsenal re-prints screw ups, it seems "normal". I'm going to leave them exactly as they are now (Audio and Visual Enhancements use 1 Capacity, regardless of Rating) since this is how it appears in all of the sourcebooks that I have. Optional rules for it isn't an option since they're data-driven items. If you want a variation on these (such as only Audio Enhancements using [Rating] while Visual Enhancements use [1], or both use [Rating]), then they'll need to be done as override files. Until Catalyst gets off their butt and releases an errata to make things consistent, I'm going to leave them as they are.
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Sengir
post Feb 22 2012, 08:46 PM
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QUOTE (Nebular @ Feb 22 2012, 09:18 PM) *
Until Catalyst gets off their butt and releases an errata to make things consistent[...]

Tehehe, good one (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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SpellBinder
post Feb 22 2012, 08:52 PM
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Heh, bet you're glad you made that Override file an option to this program now, eh Nebular? Certainly seems to clear this hotbed issue up.
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Nebular
post Feb 22 2012, 08:59 PM
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QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Feb 22 2012, 02:52 PM) *
Heh, bet you're glad you made that Override file an option to this program now, eh Nebular? Certainly seems to clear this hotbed issue up.

lol. Yeah, it's amusing when something I was so reluctant to put in ends up being so useful. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So everyone doesn't need to worry about creating custom files to suit their needs regarding this, I've quickly created 3 different ones. The override files just go in your Chummer\data directory. (just right-click and choose Save As...)
Audio Enhancements and Visual Enhancements use [Rating] Capacity
Only Audio Enhancements use [Rating] Capacity (Visual Enhancements use [1] from the base file)
Only Visual Enhancements use [Rating] Capacity (Audio Enhancements use [1] from the base file)
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ShadowWalker
post Feb 22 2012, 09:12 PM
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QUOTE (Nebular @ Feb 22 2012, 03:18 PM) *
What a freaking mess. I'd say this is hard to believe, but after the Street Magic and Arsenal re-prints screw ups, it seems "normal". I'm going to leave them exactly as they are now (Audio and Visual Enhancements use 1 Capacity, regardless of Rating) since this is how it appears in all of the sourcebooks that I have. Optional rules for it isn't an option since they're data-driven items. If you want a variation on these (such as only Audio Enhancements using [Rating] while Visual Enhancements use [1], or both use [Rating]), then they'll need to be done as override files. Until Catalyst gets off their butt and releases an errata to make things consistent, I'm going to leave them as they are.

Audio enhancements right now use rating not just 1 for capacity.
Or at least they did a couple of weeks ago when I was working on a a character.
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Nebular
post Feb 22 2012, 09:20 PM
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QUOTE (ShadowWalker @ Feb 22 2012, 03:12 PM) *
Audio enhancements right now use rating not just 1 for capacity.
Or at least they did a couple of weeks ago when I was working on a a character.

They were changed to [1] a day or two ago since nothing I had or could find suggested they should be [Rating]. I've added links to the override files to my above post to keep the [Rating] capacity if desired. Any current characters will still have the old version unless you remove and re-add them plugins.
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