How hard would it be to manufacture cheap weapons?, And has anyone ever seen any rules for such? |
How hard would it be to manufacture cheap weapons?, And has anyone ever seen any rules for such? |
Feb 16 2012, 08:36 AM
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#1
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
It's not going to take my players long to hit on the idea of arming their militia with cheap, self-produced weapons, and honestly I'm having a hard time coming up with a reason why they couldn't, since they have an Armorer shop, and the Jungles likely would as well.
Given that my players are clever, and their characters likely are as well (as well as being history buffs, since one of them is an old elf who actually has the benefit of an early-twenty-first-century public school education,) they're going to remember that simple submachine guns like the Sten gun or the Grease Gun were easily manufactured with any equipment that can press metal, and home-made by a gunsmith with the plans. I'm having a hard time figuring out any reason why that wouldn't work. So, if they do decide to do it like that - put their shop equipment on the truck and haul it to the jungles, download the plans for cheap, simple submachine guns and assault rifles, and get the mechanically-inclined people to start working on assembling them, what would be the likely rate of manufacture for simple guns in the style of an AK-47/Sten/Greasegun? Or would it be simply cheaper/more effective to buy construction kits for the modern weapons at half-price and have them assembled on-site? |
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Feb 16 2012, 11:56 AM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 154 Joined: 8-February 12 Member No.: 49,431 |
Given that my players are clever, and their characters likely are as well (as well as being history buffs, since one of them is an old elf who actually has the benefit of an early-twenty-first-century public school education,) they're going to remember that simple submachine guns like the Sten gun or the Grease Gun were easily manufactured with any equipment that can press metal, and home-made by a gunsmith with the plans. Public schools over there teach weapons manufacturing basics? |
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Feb 16 2012, 12:22 PM
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#3
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,236 Joined: 27-July 10 Member No.: 18,860 |
"MANUfacturing is never cheap", the problem is with "manual".
I can't actually imagine you would be able to produce cheaper than just buying. 5 Guys working in a factory are probably able to throw out over 1000 rifle a day. You just can't compete with that. Look at what you paid for a pistol 1950 and what you pay now... |
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Feb 16 2012, 12:42 PM
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#4
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
Plus, the Sten was *bad*. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
If you're going by SR4 RAW, I *think* there's a basic guideline that you can assemble things yourself (from the parts!) for 50% cost and full Avail (again, for the parts). If you have no parts, it gets quite sticky, and that 50% number might only come from Hardware anyway. |
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Feb 16 2012, 01:16 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 366 Joined: 17-March 10 Member No.: 18,317 |
"MANUfacturing is never cheap", the problem is with "manual". I can't actually imagine you would be able to produce cheaper than just buying. 5 Guys working in a factory are probably able to throw out over 1000 rifle a day. You just can't compete with that. Look at what you paid for a pistol 1950 and what you pay now... That is true, but I don't think this is about selling the guns or competing with major weapon companies: It's about producing weapons with the lowest price possible. Being produced by people who don't demand pay for that. It will take quite longer than the daily business of a factory, sure. Yeah, I think the whole thing about "assembling from parts being worth 50%" is from the matrix section of the book, regarding the Hardware skill. |
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Feb 16 2012, 01:46 PM
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#6
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Public schools over there teach weapons manufacturing basics? No, but they do teach the history of the second world war, so the character in question would have the educational background to get the idea to churn out as many dirt-cheap guns to put the maximum volume of fire downrange and put guns into the hands of the most people ready to enact an armed response to an incursion, even if those guns aren't terribly good. That is true, but I don't think this is about selling the guns or competing with major weapon companies: It's about producing weapons with the lowest price possible. Being produced by people who don't demand pay for that. It will take quite longer than the daily business of a factory, sure. Yeah, that's basically the whole idea. It doesn't matter if the guns they're making aren't going to be competing with Ares, the whole point of them is to put a fully-automatic slugthrower with a stock into the hands of as many willing defenders as possible. Doesn't matter if it can't take any accessories and can't be rigged to eject its magazine with a thought. It's strictly about empowering the maximum number of people to return fire should trouble come a-calling. QUOTE Yeah, I think the whole thing about "assembling from parts being worth 50%" is from the matrix section of the book, regarding the Hardware skill. It is, but I've always taken it as gospel for building anything. The real rub is how long it would take. |
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Feb 16 2012, 02:00 PM
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#7
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
Yeah, I usually consider the 50% our only guideline (awful Chemistry rules notwithstanding), though it's only specifically about Hardware; I'd certainly hate to *lower* that figure, for example. My position is just that you either have to get the parts (at least 50% cost, same Avail) and then assemble them, or the GM has to invent a process for making those parts (from… other parts/materials).
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Feb 16 2012, 02:48 PM
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#8
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,328 Joined: 2-April 07 From: The Center of the Universe Member No.: 11,360 |
You could go with the raw materials cost or a scrounging check of somesort for the cost of the metals. You'll then need to make sure the metals are of sufficient quality that the gun won't blow up in your face. Yes lots of weapons can easily be made in a machine shop.
After that is done it comes down to ammo, which requires chemistry, metallurgy, and armorer skills to make the bullets. Crossbows on the otherhand make better self-made weapons, as the tricky part is the cocking mechanism and the metals/materials used in the arms of the crossbow. |
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Feb 16 2012, 03:52 PM
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#9
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Prime Runner Ascendant Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 |
You could go with the raw materials cost or a scrounging check of somesort for the cost of the metals. You'll then need to make sure the metals are of sufficient quality that the gun won't blow up in your face. Yes lots of weapons can easily be made in a machine shop. After that is done it comes down to ammo, which requires chemistry, metallurgy, and armorer skills to make the bullets. Crossbows on the otherhand make better self-made weapons, as the tricky part is the cocking mechanism and the metals/materials used in the arms of the crossbow. Leaf Springs from Trucks... That is what I used. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
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Feb 16 2012, 06:33 PM
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#10
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
If you have blueprints, a machine shop (milling machine lather, etc), metal stock and skills you can make guns. However things like heat treating and anodizing are often essential to making them work reliably and they can be a big deal.
Barrels are going to require that you use your machine ship to build the tools to rifle the barrel. Ammo is also going to be an issue. You can make bullets and, with a lot more work, cases. It's extremely difficult to make primers and smokeless powder. |
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Feb 16 2012, 09:24 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 393 Joined: 2-July 07 Member No.: 12,125 |
I didn't realize that Shadowrun was an economics & business simulator.
Whenever a player comes to me and says 'I want to make [whatever]', I ask them to ponder, even for a moment, how they would actually go about doing that and if their character has the skills required. Then, I remind them that the game is about being professional criminals and that, if they wanted to roll up a character with the knowledge and active skills to build stuff, they are welcome to, but that they would be designing an NPC. If you and your players are willing to abstract and roll over the immense hurdles that come along with doing any amount of manufacturing on a large scale - much less something as complex as firearms - then by all means, have at it. I am sure you can figure out a set of complex test thresholds and intervals that would make sense to you. As to the original question of how hard it would be to do, I'd say that it is probably a lot harder than you'd think. Though much of a firearm can be made of stamped, pressed steel, there are still parts - the most important ones, really - that need to be precision machined. Assembling a firearm is a horse of a different color. If your players were able to get a supplier of parts from a major manufacturer, a cottage industry in the Plastic Jungles could easily crank out the assembled weapons. |
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Feb 16 2012, 09:25 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 328 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,353 |
For something like a gun using parts, I would go with either simple or complex which gives a threshold of 4 or 8 with parts being half price. For a vintage firearm, it's definitely simple. I don't know about a more "modern" firearm like an AK-97 or Ares Alpha and could see it varying. Likely I would keep the more "basic" firearms simple and maybe the more advanced/special firearms being complex. I would require a shop and have the interval time be 2 hours. That's the standard time for weapons mods so it seems reasonable enough.
That means an average armorer (armorer 3 + logic 3;DP:6) can assemble 2 AK-47/AK-97s per 8 hour workday on average. An average man (logic 3) defaulting (-1) with AR guides (+2) can make 1 and maybe 2 a day. A great armorer (DP:12+) can crank out 4 a day. That seems about right. It does depend on how you do extended tests however. |
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Feb 16 2012, 10:01 PM
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#13
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
It seems like vintage guns would be *harder* to assemble.
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Feb 16 2012, 11:24 PM
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#14
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
As to the original question of how hard it would be to do, I'd say that it is probably a lot harder than you'd think. Though much of a firearm can be made of stamped, pressed steel, there are still parts - the most important ones, really - that need to be precision machined. Stamped guns are not a good way to make a small number of cheap guns. They are a great way to make a LOT of cheap guns, but the up-front investment is enormous. People think of stamped firearms as easy to make, but they are not. You need a LOT of precision machining to make the dies and then you need a lot of very large and expensive equipment to do the stamping and heat treating. It's a great way to mass produce inexpensive weapons, but you need a whole lot of tech to do it. Which is why the USSR used milled receivers in AKs for year, because reliably making stamped receivers required technology they had not mastered. The AKM in 1959 is where the transitioned to stamped and riveted receivers. |
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Feb 17 2012, 12:18 AM
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#15
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,705 Joined: 5-October 09 From: You are in a clearing Member No.: 17,722 |
You can use a couple pieces of pipe to make a 12 gague slam-bang shotgun for ~5 dollars. Can't hit anything past 20m, but it'll throw 00 at a sucker every time. Enough people shooting them will make a nasty swarm of buck.
At that price, the shells will run you more than the weapon. |
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Feb 17 2012, 02:29 AM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 393 Joined: 2-July 07 Member No.: 12,125 |
Stamped guns are not a good way to make a small number of cheap guns... And having a Barrens warehouse full of milling machines grinding away to produce receivers isn't much of a better plan, I don't think. Either way you slice it, this is a problem where, to make anything resembling a decent firearm takes pretty serious investment, training, engineering, general dextrous know how etc. that far outstrips what I'd consider within the realm of a Shadowrun game. I mean, the Russians basement bunker munitions factories cranking out handmade weapons during the second world war... But I wonder that some of the parts were made in a more traditional factory setting and/or a rag-tag bunch of professional criminals could produce the iron will and esprit de corps that pervaded the Red Army's quartermaster corps. Making some pipe-guns is one thing, but trying to produce gas-operated, automatic weapons that aren't going to shake themselves apart, have constant failures and be able to hit a target beyond 20 meters is asking the moon. |
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Feb 17 2012, 03:18 AM
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#17
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Hrm... Yeah, good points. Unless you're willing and able to construct or refurbish a factory with machine tools, producing a lot of guns like that is off the table. And if you are, then that's going to vastly outstrip the needs of 200 farmers. At that point, you're not farmers, you're ironmongers.
Seems like if they want to get the most cash for their bucks, the best way would be to buy kits for cheap guns at half off and assemble them? |
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Feb 17 2012, 03:45 AM
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#18
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
And having a Barrens warehouse full of milling machines grinding away to produce receivers isn't much of a better plan, I don't think. Either way you slice it, this is a problem where, to make anything resembling a decent firearm takes pretty serious investment, training, engineering, general dextrous know how etc. that far outstrips what I'd consider within the realm of a Shadowrun game. I mean, the Russians basement bunker munitions factories cranking out handmade weapons during the second world war... But I wonder that some of the parts were made in a more traditional factory setting and/or a rag-tag bunch of professional criminals could produce the iron will and esprit de corps that pervaded the Red Army's quartermaster corps. Making some pipe-guns is one thing, but trying to produce gas-operated, automatic weapons that aren't going to shake themselves apart, have constant failures and be able to hit a target beyond 20 meters is asking the moon. The Russians were not building tanks with hammers and files, they picked up the machine tools and moved them a few hundred miles and then ran them, sometimes in what amounted to the open air. You can build a receiver with a cheap (less than $10,000) CNC milling machine, people do it. But it is a lot easier to buy the bolt, barrel, etc from somewhere else than to make them from scratch. And scale is an issue. If you need 10 you could do it. If you need 1000 next week or next month that's a different matter. But a "facility" scale machine shop operated by someone with some decent skills should be capable of making a gun from scratch, minus the fancy electronics, if they have the plans or one to copy. They might have to spend a week to make a button rifling rig, but they should be able to do so. They would just need a stock of materials and new cutters. But it would be slow. Particularly if they have to build all the minor parts. |
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Feb 17 2012, 05:44 AM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 821 Joined: 4-December 09 Member No.: 17,940 |
As far as part go, in my opinion one thing you can do is to buy a few crateloads of half-ruined guns as scrap metal, then use that as a basis. Depending on what you get, with a bit of luck you cna canibalize and refabric some parts to get some of the guns into working order (say one in four). Then you can either rebuild more parts when you have time or use the guns as a source of parts and material for simpler designs.
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Feb 17 2012, 08:39 AM
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#20
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
The few people who might sell guns for scrap metal also know how to ensure they ARE scrap. You might be able to pay off someone to not destroy the guns they are selling as scrap, but otherwise you are going to up with scrap.
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Feb 17 2012, 10:58 AM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 873 Joined: 16-September 10 Member No.: 19,052 |
Hrm... Yeah, good points. Unless you're willing and able to construct or refurbish a factory with machine tools, producing a lot of guns like that is off the table. And if you are, then that's going to vastly outstrip the needs of 200 farmers. At that point, you're not farmers, you're ironmongers. Seems like if they want to get the most cash for their bucks, the best way would be to buy kits for cheap guns at half off and assemble them? If your players are so intent on doing this, why not just accomodate them another way? Give them some volume rebate on weapons they buy (whole, but maybe in need of service) from a surplus sale or something. Manufacturing is only good when you have a workshop and equipment, but can't buy any guns. |
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Feb 17 2012, 11:26 AM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 821 Joined: 4-December 09 Member No.: 17,940 |
The few people who might sell guns for scrap metal also know how to ensure they ARE scrap. You might be able to pay off someone to not destroy the guns they are selling as scrap, but otherwise you are going to up with scrap. Not all of them would bother - a gun runner who doesn't want to build a repute for selling crap that doesn't work is likely to have 'trash' guns piling into some warehouse corner. And won't care what you're doign with the guns as long it's not rebuilding for for sale. that would cut into his business. Cobbling together guns for peoples who wouldn't be able to afford is working guns in the first place isn't. |
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Feb 17 2012, 12:38 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 328 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,353 |
It seems like vintage guns would be *harder* to assemble. I was assuming that "modern" firearms in the SR universe are built to tighter standards that current day firearms (which are vintage). For example, assembling the Ares Alpha's gas chamber design might require messing around with some intricate parts. Wiring up the smartgun system seems to be a pain. Considering how hard it is to hook up a smartgun system externally or internally (4 and 8 thresholds respectively), that'll make it harder to assemble. If you go with parts in a socket A into socket B like an Ikea sofa for all firearms, then those details might not matter. |
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Feb 17 2012, 01:41 PM
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#24
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
I haven't gotten any plans from my players as-of yet. But I know that one of them is a very industrious type person; in every game I've ever known him, or known him to tell a story of, he thinks big and impressive. In my Exalted Modern game, he started with a Fortune 500 company and had plans to expand, expand, expand. Even when I threw him a curveball and pressed him into buying (at a firesale price, of course, but still enough to nearly wipe out his organization's liquid capital) the Luxor Las Vegas casino-hotel, he was making plans to not only refurbish and reopen it, but also to use the grounds to host his superhero lair (of course) and a comic book printing/publishing company.
His Pixie Hacker from SR3? Yeah, she snuck into the Renraku ARC after everything went pear-shaped and Deus escaped, after the place got sealed up, and she brought the reactors online to run the manufacturing lines and sell the product wholesale on the black market. So frankly, this is just what I'm expecting. |
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Feb 17 2012, 02:11 PM
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#25
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
If that's the stuff you let them do, then yup, you should expect it.
(The general 'you', ShadowDragon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ) |
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