Making your own foci Options

[Boomer1985]

wow this topic went sideways fast. but i dont think my gm is doing diminishing pools cause we are limiting the optional rules and its one of the many reasons the group as a whole left missions.

[blackhawk1w]

So are able to use this in missions? With some down time this could be very interesting

[Boomer1985]

So are able to use this in missions? With some down time this could be very interesting

Well missions went and made all extended test btwn missions a diminishing dice pool where you had to buy hits to make everything everywhere the same.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It's a metaphor.

Is that like a Metaplane? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Irion]

And yet, in Shadowrun, for the second one, I can look up the formulaic solution and apply it with no skill whatsoever, and solve it eventually. I may not understand everything, but I could still get the correct answer. Your argument does not take that into account. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

For most systems of differential equations there won't be any.(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So you would go with try and error. You could succed at some point, but thats monkey hitting on keyboards trying to write shakesbear.
Possible? Yes. If you give a a million years. Give or take.

Thats why I took them. If you solve one of the more complex once you have a PhD and it might fit on one page.
A mathprofessor I talked to said: The best PhDs in mathematics are the one fitting on one sheet of paper.

Thats why I took that example. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

For most systems of differential equations there won't be any.(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So you would go with try and error. You could succed at some point, but thats monkey hitting on keyboards trying to write shakesbear.
Possible? Yes. If you give a a million years. Give or take.

Thats why I took them. If you solve one of the more complex once you have a PhD and it might fit on one page.
A mathprofessor I talked to said: The best PhDs in mathematics are the one fitting on one sheet of paper.

Thats why I took that example. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

So you ADMIT it is possible to solve given enough time for an unskilled person... Absolutely amazing, since it is at odds with your stance. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

… in a million years. C'mon, TJ.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

… in a million years. C'mon, TJ.

But it WON't Be a million years Yerameyahu, and you know that (If it took a Million Years, we would STILL be struggling with Basic Calculus because it woud still not exist). What happened to that Metaphor?
Fact of the matter is that Diminishing Dice Pools only matter in Dramatic Circumstances, and have no real necessity when time is not an issue.

[The Jake]

I would have thought karma to bind the things was the great equaliser, not the time creating them.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

A Force 8 Power Focus costs a crap load of karma and imposes a lot of risk...

- J.

[Yerameyahu]

That's not the point. You said he said X, and he did not. You're being very silly with your 'debate' tactics today, TJ. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That is not a fact. Diminishing pools matter for downtime and other non-dramatic situations, in which the character cannot succeed in any reasonable duration.

The book specifically tells us that this is case, on SR4A p64.

The gamemaster can also [in addition to limiting the time] limit the number of rolls under the assumption that if the character can’t finish it with a certain amount of effort, she simply doesn’t have the skills to complete it. The suggested way to do this is to apply a cumulative –1 dice modifier to each test after the first

In fact, it says nothing about 'dramatic situations'. It says, "Though it may seem that characters are guaranteed of success over time, this might not always be appropriate or dramatic." So, it's 'not dramatic that they're guaranteed success', not 'use diminishing pool when the situation is already dramatic'. In addition, per the rules, a limited timeframe (e.g., 15 seconds) is *already* limited, so there's no need for the diminishing pool. Again, this is explicit on p64.

[The Jake]

That's not the point. You said he said X, and he did not. You're being very silly with your 'debate' tactics today, TJ. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That is not a fact. Diminishing pools matter for downtime and other non-dramatic situations, in which the character cannot succeed in any reasonable duration.

The book specifically tells us that this is case, on SR4A p64.
In fact, it says nothing about 'dramatic situations'. It says, "Though it may seem that characters are guaranteed of success over time, this might not always be appropriate or dramatic." So, it's 'not dramatic that they're guaranteed success', not 'use diminishing pool when the situation is already dramatic'. In addition, per the rules, a limited timeframe (e.g., 15 seconds) is *already* limited, so there's no need for the diminishing pool. Again, this is explicit on p64.

Pretty sure the GM is also allowed to hand wave it and state that the character lacks the skills, and not just rely on diminishing dice pools.

- J.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I would have thought karma to bind the things was the great equaliser, not the time creating them.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

A Force 8 Power Focus costs a crap load of karma and imposes a lot of risk...

- J.

I think that the Karma to binding is the Great Equalizer, yes. But honestly, why are you spending that much Karma to Bind a Force 8 Power Focus when you can get a Force 8 Basic Spirit Ally, which is even better?

[The Jake]

I think that the Karma to binding is the Great Equalizer, yes. But honestly, why are you spending that much Karma to Bind a Force 8 Power Focus when you can get a Force 8 Basic Spirit Ally, which is even better?

Well, what do you think *I'm* working on in game? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Seriously, I gotta buy a few things first. GM has agreed to use the optional rules allowing me to tie Arcana to my casting Attribute (Charisma, yesssss....) so I gotta pick up at least 1 pt in Enchanting and Arcana, two other metamagics (one being Synesthesia, thanks Spy Games) and I'm good to start saving....

- J.

[Yerameyahu]

*shrug* That's the exact words from the book, The Jake. It says, 'the GM should limit them; we suggest by diminishing pools'. So… yes? The GM can do anything.

[blackhawk1w]

Well missions went and made all extended test btwn missions a diminishing dice pool where you had to buy hits to make everything everywhere the same.

Maybe I have missed something when I have played what is buying hits?

[The Jake]

*shrug* That's the exact words from the book, The Jake. It says, 'the GM should limit them; we suggest by diminishing pools'. So… yes? The GM can do anything.

I'm AFB, but I'm saying that the book actually says somewhere along the lines of "if it's going to take them forever the GM can just say no" (or words pertaining to that effect).
I've always been a fan of these. It's stops players from rolling dice endlessly, stringing out extended tests by 1-2 hits at a time.

- J.

[Yerameyahu]

I mean… I quoted it. It's right up there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It says the GM can limit it, and the suggested (not required) method is diminishing pool. The GM can also say X intervals only, or anything else.

[Irion]

But it WON't Be a million years Yerameyahu, and you know that (If it took a Million Years, we would STILL be struggling with Basic Calculus because it woud still not exist). What happened to that Metaphor?
Fact of the matter is that Diminishing Dice Pools only matter in Dramatic Circumstances, and have no real necessity when time is not an issue.

Jesus christ. We had been over this on the last page.
YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO INCREASE YOUR SKILL. This means your knowhow about math will be that of a (lets say) 10 year old who left elementary and is in his first year of highschool. (Or in the second if your elementary is shoter than ours)

If you increase your skill, the whole process looks quite different. You will restart your work out of an other position.
And if you got into university and you "learned" it, you might just be able to solve it in 15 min. But it does not actually matter how long you worked on it before.

So the next guy might solve the same problem even faster, even though you have worked on it for nearly 10-12 years and he just for 10 min.

I think that the Karma to binding is the Great Equalizer, yes. But honestly, why are you spending that much Karma to Bind a Force 8 Power Focus when you can get a Force 8 Basic Spirit Ally, which is even better?

It is quite hard to do. And at this point, you have to ask yourself (due to amount of prepartion you will put into this) why not just go with force 10 and "win" the game.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

I think that the Karma to binding is the Great Equalizer, yes. But honestly, why are you spending that much Karma to Bind a Force 8 Power Focus when you can get a Force 8 Basic Spirit Ally, which is even better?

Because an Ally Spirit does not help you with summoning / binding spirits (e.g. an F8 ally spirit ^^)

[The Jake]

Because an Ally Spirit does not help you with summoning / binding spirits (e.g. an F8 ally spirit ^^)

No but it helps with almost everything else. That Force 8 spirit nets me 8 dice to all spell casting rolls with Aid Sorcery, can offset drain if I really need to (although I'd avoid that like the plague), has its own Edge which you can draw upon, and more.

To say nothing of the fact you can obtain a Binding Focus that does the same thing and for significantly cheaper. Infact, I am thinking of building a stacked Centering/Binding focus for that reason. Once I have that, I almost don't see a need for a Power Focus...

If you're a spirit focused magician, Binding tests and Drain Resistance are all you really care about. If I'm in combat and I'm casting (Combat) spells, something has gone horribly wrong.

Last session I sic'ced 5 Force 6 spirits onto a room full of Triads and a (Master?) Shedim. Watching the look on the other player's faces when I said "Get them!" was priceless.

Irion, I saw an analysis on this once by Frank Trollman and he said once you get to Force 7+, you start to really own face. So I split the difference and settled on a Force 8. I don't think my GM is happy with this move but since he's throwing around Force 10s and I'm spending a bucket load of karma, I don't feel so bad about it...

- J.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Jesus christ. We had been over this on the last page.
YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO INCREASE YOUR SKILL. This means your knowhow about math will be that of a (lets say) 10 year old who left elementary and is in his first year of highschool. (Or in the second if your elementary is shoter than ours)

If you increase your skill, the whole process looks quite different. You will restart your work out of an other position.
And if you got into university and you "learned" it, you might just be able to solve it in 15 min. But it does not actually matter how long you worked on it before.

So the next guy might solve the same problem even faster, even though you have worked on it for nearly 10-12 years and he just for 10 min.


It is quite hard to do. And at this point, you have to ask yourself (due to amount of prepartion you will put into this) why not just go with force 10 and "win" the game.

Who is increasing Skill? I posited a download of a Datasoft that could possibly AID IN THE SKILL ROLL, but DOES NOT INCREASE SKILL. Get over it Irion. Your position still holds that it is possible to do, whether it takes 10-12 Years or 10 minutes, depending upon the person. Therefore, There is NO need for a Diminishing Roll.

Which makes my point for me. If you are eventually going to solve it/build it/whatever, why would you CARE to use diminishing pools in the first place? It ONLY matters when there is a Limiting time factor. Can you do it in the time allotted? There are several options for that. Diminishing Dice pools, or limit the number of rolls to your Base Dice Pool, or Limit rolls to Skill Rank. Or just say NO. All of these are options thatt a GM can use to add DRAMA to the story. If there is no need for the Drama, then there is no need for the limit on how many rolls are required, because it does not matter if you succeed or not. The only thing that maters in that case is HOW LONG it takes.

[Irion]

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
The rule can't take into account changes of dicepool. Be it learning or datasoft or what ever. If you do it, you have to housrule.
So just increase your pool up from the point you use the talent soft.

Which makes my point for me. If you are eventually going to solve it/build it/whatever, why would you CARE to use diminishing pools in the first place? It ONLY matters when there is a Limiting time factor.

No, if this is the case IT DOES NOT.
If time is the leading question you do not apply this rule (in most cases).
If success is the leading question, you do apply the rule.

The rule is really, really simple.
One big task: Deminishing dicepools.
Several small task: No deminishing dicepools.

There is actually no way where this rule leads to silly outcomes.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

There is actually no way where this rule leads to silly outcomes.

Really? I believe that several people have already pointed out a few... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

You keep contradicting the clear rules quoted. The rule is suggested when the player *won't* eventually succeed (which is the standard case). This is for special cases. You *may* limit the time directly, or you may limit the number of rolls, and one (suggested) method of doing that is diminishing pool. This explicitly reflects the fact that the player *can't* complete the task with the skill they have. It can't be any clearer.

This lines up nicely with the distinction between brute force/brute time, and threshold ability; Skill 1 can complete thousands of addition tasks (or dig 1 foot of ditch), given time and attempts, but maybe never solve a single math task that is beyond them (or, I dunno forge a good painting). Note that this is only an illustrative example, not a literal application of a SR4 skill. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You keep contradicting the clear rules quoted. The rule is suggested when the player *won't* eventually succeed (which is the standard case). This is for special cases. You *may* limit the time directly, or you may limit the number of rolls, and one (suggested) method of doing that is diminishing pool. This explicitly reflects the fact that the player *can't* complete the task with the skill they have. It can't be any clearer.

This lines up nicely with the distinction between brute force/brute time, and threshold ability; Skill 1 can complete thousands of addition tasks (or dig 1 foot of ditch), given time and attempts, but maybe never solve a single math task that is beyond them (or, I dunno forge a good painting). Note that this is only an illustrative example, not a literal application of a SR4 skill. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

No, I just do not acknowledge that in 2070, you can NEVER accomplish something (Assuming you are at least skilled in the attempt - Rank 1 or better, and , ironically, that is not always a requirement either). There are so many ways to approach a task that all I see is it taking time. Even If it takes 10+ Years, you still succeeded at that task.

Give me an example of a 2070 Task Check (that you would expect to possibly see in a game) that *won't" eventually succeed, that is not time restricted.