Making your own foci Options

[Yerameyahu]

You can believe what you want. The rules explicitly say it can happen, and suggest this method. That's all. Don't use it if you don't like the suggestion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It's not even useful to talk about '10 years'; simple math means that almost any task will either be completed after X intervals, or the person will have glitch-failed already. The point is 'is it a brute force task, or not'.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You can believe what you want. The rules explicitly say it can happen, and suggest this method. That's all. Don't use it if you don't like the suggestion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It's not even useful to talk about '10 years'; simple math means that almost any task will either be completed after X intervals, or the person will have glitch-failed already. The point is 'is it a brute force task, or not'.

The rules may say that it *MAY* happen, but never tell you in what circumstances? That is the issue. There are absolutely NO defined Instances where it is an issue, other than when the GM thinks it may be possible (and usually when it is time constrained or dramatically appropriate - I would have to go back and look at the actual quote, but it is very similar to that). "It *MAY* happen." But to Whom? When? How? Why? See my point? Fact is, it is only when time is an issue that it really matters. Any other time it becomes irrelevant. Anecdotal, I know, but a Child, with standard Home Garage Tools, and no formal automotive education, can tear a car apart, to its frame and put it back together again, and have it function like it was new. I know this, because My uncle did it at the age of 8. By Himself. All it took was TIME (IIRC, it took him about 6 weeks each way, over the course of a summer).

What I will agree with is that Shadowrun does not have many "Rules" for the vast majority (Most) of design/construction/building tasks. And this causes issues when a group wants to pursue such things. This results in many GM's just assuming that a character will/should fail beacuse he is not the best at his profession, or does not have all of the materials/tools/locations he needs. When, in reality, these things are not really all that hard to come by. However, this is not Geek the Building, it is Shadowrun, and most of this is way out of the scope of most games. So, it should rarely be an issue. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Like I said: the rules provide for the possibility and suggest a method. If you don't want it, don't use it.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

well, most children who take apart a lego building can't put it back together like it was without a plan ...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Like I said: the rules provide for the possibility and suggest a method. If you don't want it, don't use it.

Agreed... they provide for the Possibility, not the Inevitability. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Unfortunately, the Diminishing Pool Method leans towards Inevitability more often than not.

[Yerameyahu]

No one said that, though. The GM decides whether or not to a given task is a non-brute-time task, period.

[3278]

The SR dice mechanics for extended tests aren't designed for long-term projects, which is why they don't work for them.

And I think that's exactly right. These rules are intended to - as you say - "prevent low DP characters plugging away at impossibly hard tasks until they get the requisite number of successes." Now, sometimes, that doesn't match reality, either just incidentally, or because the timescales possible in real life aren't reflected in the rule. Which is, ultimately, why there's a GM: there is no single, simple, fits-all rule that will match Shadowrun extended tasks to real-life extended tasks. GM judgment is still required to determine if a task is achievable at all, and if so, what sort of timescale it could be achieved in.

[The Jake]

The rules may say that it *MAY* happen, but never tell you in what circumstances? That is the issue. There are absolutely NO defined Instances where it is an issue, other than when the GM thinks it may be possible (and usually when it is time constrained or dramatically appropriate - I would have to go back and look at the actual quote, but it is very similar to that). "It *MAY* happen." But to Whom? When? How? Why? See my point? Fact is, it is only when time is an issue that it really matters. Any other time it becomes irrelevant. Anecdotal, I know, but a Child, with standard Home Garage Tools, and no formal automotive education, can tear a car apart, to its frame and put it back together again, and have it function like it was new. I know this, because My uncle did it at the age of 8. By Himself. All it took was TIME (IIRC, it took him about 6 weeks each way, over the course of a summer).

What I will agree with is that Shadowrun does not have many "Rules" for the vast majority (Most) of design/construction/building tasks. And this causes issues when a group wants to pursue such things. This results in many GM's just assuming that a character will/should fail beacuse he is not the best at his profession, or does not have all of the materials/tools/locations he needs. When, in reality, these things are not really all that hard to come by. However, this is not Geek the Building, it is Shadowrun, and most of this is way out of the scope of most games. So, it should rarely be an issue. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

My reading of the rules it came down to GM fiat. I suspect that it is your problem - there is no clear mechanic, it's subject to GM interpretation.

- J.

[Irion]

@3278
Actually this rule fits. The point is, long term projects consist of doing something and scraping everything and start a new if you realize your methodes where not good enough to finish it.
Think of writing a programm.
If you just know very few basics you will start writing everything down in one file. Probably not even using loops. This will be OK for simple programs. But as your programm grows it gets harder and harder to keep track of everything. If you now learn, that it is better to write Sub-routines and sub-programs and how to format you program better, this might help you. But you would need to start again from scratches. And this is exactly what the rule is telling you.
So it does work.
The rule does of course not work if you simulate several tasks in a row. Because you would actually need to roll several extended test. And again it would work.
@The Jake

My reading of the rules it came down to GM fiat. I suspect that it is your problem - there is no clear mechanic, it's subject to GM interpretation.

I really do not get it, it is quite spilled out in the text.

The gamemaster can also [in addition to limiting the time] limit the number of rolls under the assumption that if the character can’t finish it with a certain amount of effort, she simply doesn’t have the skills to complete it. The suggested way to do this is to apply a cumulative –1 dice modifier to each test after the first

I mean honestly, thats quite straigt forward in my book. Everything where it is questionable that you can make it, you use this rule.
And by can make it, it of course means in ONE try. Not just making an extended test which consists of doing the same task over and over again, which is what some people here suggest as examples, why the rule does not work. Which is quite silly. Because here the extended Test rules in general DO NOT WORK.

[The Jake]

Is that text in the original SR4 book or just SR4a?

- J.

[Irion]

@The Jake
SR4A as far as I know. The errata for the original book says:

Extended Test limits number of rolls by a cumulative -1 dice
pool modifi er per roll.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

@The Jake
SR4A as far as I know. The errata for the original book says:

Except what determines what is possible and what is not so that you can apply the ruling? It is arbitrary, mostly dependant upon individual GM's interpretation of how difficult a task is. A GM, I might add, who likely has absolutely NO IDEA of the actual difficulty of said task. But, he has to wing it, because there are no real guidelines available to determine such things, which leads to these types of discussions. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)