Artisan and Etiquette, question Options

[Kolinho]

Midas, making defaulting more glitch-rpone and risky is presumably the point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I agree that core mechanic overhauls are rough (I said so), but I'd never call hit-capping 'elegant'. It's hamfisted at best.

Aye, agree with this. I'll roll with glitching on a 1 or 2 when defaulting and let my players run wild with hits from their skills I think.

[Yerameyahu]

Let me know how that playtests? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'm very interested in the idea that defaulting is 'risky', not because you'll fail (and not because you'll be capped to 1 hit), but because your success is never as good as a 'real' success (marred, instead, by glitches).

[Kolinho]

Let me know how that playtests? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'm very interested in the idea that defaulting is 'risky', not because you'll fail (and not because you'll be capped to 1 hit), but because your success is never as good as a 'real' success (marred, instead, by glitches).

Will do. Campaign kicks off next week now that pesky chargen is out of the way. On an unrelated note, BP building doesn't half take a while to get your runners ready!

[Mercer]

I am not sure why you find stealing a sub by defaulting on reaction and, if you need more than 1 hit using Edge "not cool", seems pretty icy to me.

The main reason is that virtually every test you make in a vehicle requires more than one success. Only the simplest things are threshold [1], and then only open terrain is a +0 modifier. So if you're doing anything other than the simplest thing in open terrain, you fail and have to make a Crash test (which is threshold [3]) to keep from crashing. And if the vehicle combat lasts three rounds (which admittedly is as long as I've seen tactical vehicle combat go), the characters would have to spend Edge every round (to control the vehicle), and every time something else made them make a crash test.

That's the reason I chose vehicle combat as an example. It's one of the areas of the rules where basically everything requires more than one success. (Honestly, even if you had a Pilot: Whatever 1, with the success cap you probably shouldn't try anything beyond parallel parking.)

[snowRaven]

That's the reason I chose vehicle combat as an example. It's one of the areas of the rules where basically everything requires more than one success. (Honestly, even if you had a Pilot: Whatever 1, with the success cap you probably shouldn't try anything beyond parallel parking.)

...which is quite true for someone who's had about a week or two of driving practice.

[Mercer]

It's quite true of someone who has a low dice pool, but we're in two camps about whether or not that's the same thing.

[snowRaven]

It's quite true of someone who has a low dice pool, but we're in two camps about whether or not that's the same thing.

Real life, how many people have you heard of who can pull of parallel parking the first time they ever sit in the driver's seat of a car?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Real life, how many people have you heard of who can pull of parallel parking the first time they ever sit in the driver's seat of a car?

Real Life... I have heard of, and seen, a few. *shrug*

[Kolinho]

Real life, how many people have you heard of who can pull of parallel parking the first time they ever sit in the driver's seat of a car?

Tsk tsk.

That way danger lies.

[Yerameyahu]

Ha, that was my exact reaction.

[Mercer]

Real life, how many people have you heard of who can pull of parallel parking the first time they ever sit in the driver's seat of a car?

I'll agree with the general consensus that comparisons to real life are of limited value in gaming discussions. (Not that many people I know have supernatural Reactions or the ability it control a vehicle in VR, but it would seem to me that if they did they might be better than your average schmoe.)

That said, my objection to the optional rule is still this: Unless it's really simple (threshold [1]) or they're willing to spend Edge, if the characters don't have the skill, they cannot succeed at the action. I don't have a problem with the odds being stacked against them, but being unable to succeed because they took a skill at 1 instead of 2 irks me a little.

The other thing, Edge is nice way to represent luck mechanically, but I also like actual luck. Occasionally a character with a low or no skill with roll their 4 dice and get 4 successes. That's a nice, unexpected moment in the game and it doesn't happen all that often. I would hate it if when it did come up, it was meaningless.

I mean, continuing the vehicular example, a crash test is threshold [3]. If our superhuman Reaction guy is piloting the vehicle, he still needs to be able to get 3 successes on 8 dice every time the bad guys force a control test, meaning he still has to be pretty lucky to succeed. And we're still using the hard cap maximum as our example. Someone with simply a really good Reaction would only be rolling 5 dice. These are not odds that players seek out or feel comfortable with.

[snowRaven]

Tsk tsk.

That way danger lies.

Yeah, yeah - I know (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Real Life... I have heard of, and seen, a few. *shrug*

Just the reply I was looking for! Now, how many of those did it in the space of one tactical combat turn?

The text states that a driver should only make a test at all if time is a crucial factor or there's a chance of crashing. Also, a failed test won't necessarily result in a crash - it may just mean he failed the maneuver and can try again. (By RAW this goes for all skills - don't make a test if it's something the character can perform without difficulty - unless you need a degree of success, of course)

I mean, continuing the vehicular example, a crash test is threshold [3]. If our superhuman Reaction guy is piloting the vehicle, he still needs to be able to get 3 successes on 8 dice every time the bad guys force a control test, meaning he still has to be pretty lucky to succeed. And we're still using the hard cap maximum as our example. Someone with simply a really good Reaction would only be rolling 5 dice. These are not odds that players seek out or feel comfortable with.

...which is why you raise those odds by getting Pilot Ground Craft, or don't attempt to drive a car in a chase situation when you barely know which pedal is which. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Mercer]

It's impossible for every character to have every skill. That's pretty much why defaulting is an option, even if it's a poor option-- even for superhuman stats. If you cap successes at 1 in a system where 1 success often isn't enough to actually succeed, you take that away from the players. And I think the game is poorer for it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Just the reply I was looking for! Now, how many of those did it in the space of one tactical combat turn?

The text states that a driver should only make a test at all if time is a crucial factor or there's a chance of crashing. Also, a failed test won't necessarily result in a crash - it may just mean he failed the maneuver and can try again. (By RAW this goes for all skills - don't make a test if it's something the character can perform without difficulty - unless you need a degree of success, of course)

And the expected Answer, None. Took longer than 3 seconds, to be sure. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Real life is a mistake, though. It typically takes experienced drivers more than 3 seconds, as well.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Real life is a mistake, though. It typically takes experienced drivers more than 3 seconds, as well.

Yep, this is also true.

[Midas]

I'll agree with the general consensus that comparisons to real life are of limited value in gaming discussions. (Not that many people I know have supernatural Reactions or the ability it control a vehicle in VR, but it would seem to me that if they did they might be better than your average schmoe.)

That said, my objection to the optional rule is still this: Unless it's really simple (threshold [1]) or they're willing to spend Edge, if the characters don't have the skill, they cannot succeed at the action. I don't have a problem with the odds being stacked against them, but being unable to succeed because they took a skill at 1 instead of 2 irks me a little.

The other thing, Edge is nice way to represent luck mechanically, but I also like actual luck. Occasionally a character with a low or no skill with roll their 4 dice and get 4 successes. That's a nice, unexpected moment in the game and it doesn't happen all that often. I would hate it if when it did come up, it was meaningless.

I mean, continuing the vehicular example, a crash test is threshold [3]. If our superhuman Reaction guy is piloting the vehicle, he still needs to be able to get 3 successes on 8 dice every time the bad guys force a control test, meaning he still has to be pretty lucky to succeed. And we're still using the hard cap maximum as our example. Someone with simply a really good Reaction would only be rolling 5 dice. These are not odds that players seek out or feel comfortable with.

As SnowRaven says, in my experience most high REA characters will get at least 1 or 2 skill ranks in Pilot Ground Vehicles to act as secondary wheelman or even primary wheelman in a group without a rigger.

As for the Pilot Submarine (Water Craft) example, more than likely there won't be pursuit once you have dived ... if there are two subs, you probably want to blow up the other one as a matter of course, but especially if you are planning to pilot it by defaulting, you don't want to have to fend off pursuit by a skilled rigger. This way, one success per turn might be all you need unless you need to dive fast or manouvre in a tight spot to get out of the dock ...

As for your assertion about multiple vehicle control tests per round, usually you only have to roll to control the vehicle, and if you use Edge to make sure you can beat the necessary threshold you will probably not have to make a crash test as a result of failing that test, taking enemy fire notwithstanding.

[snowRaven]

Real life is a mistake, though. It typically takes experienced drivers more than 3 seconds, as well.

Of course life is a mistake! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Most experienced drivers wouldn't have more than 6-7 dice (remember that Pilot Ground Craft 4 is the level of Formula one and NASCAR drivers...), and so couldn't perform a high threshold maneuver in a single combat turn. The ppl with a Rea 4-6 and Skill 4-5 can be fairly sure to accomplish a 'back-up, turn-wheel'-parallell park in roughly 3 seconds.

[Yerameyahu]

Maybe. I have no reason to accept or not accept your random claim about SR4 mechanics in real life. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[snowRaven]

Maybe. I have no reason to accept or not accept your random claim about SR4 mechanics in real life. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Oh, I switched entirely to SR4 mechanics there - didn't you notice? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) They simply happen to correlate roughly to real life examples in this one (rare) case (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Haha, oops. That was a subtle change. Yes, assuming parallel parking is a simple and standard Pilot test, anyone can do it in 3 seconds (including defaulters, unless you're giving it a higher threshold; hard to justify). So… that tells us nothing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Especially since ANYONE can do that in Shadowrun with a Skill of 0, by default; since it actually requires no roll, in my opinion. I would classify that as an everyday driving event. *shrug*

[Yerameyahu]

We're assuming they're being shot at, or the car will explode if they park badly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Obviously they'd let the Pilot do it, normally.

[snowRaven]

What he said ^