Artisan and Etiquette, question Options

[bibliophile20]

The problem with that that some people have is something like this: Take a well known and skilled artist who does nothing but sculpting, has only done sculpting and never anything else but sculpting in the Artisan skill; game mechanics he has a high rating in Artisan and a large DP to do the work. By RAW the same DP would go to him the first time ever in his life he goes to write a song.

And that's when the GM adds in a situational negative modifier for "working outside your normal discipline."

[snowRaven]

The problem with that that some people have is something like this: Take a well known and skilled artist who does nothing but sculpting, has only done sculpting and never anything else but sculpting in the Artisan skill; game mechanics he has a high rating in Artisan and a large DP to do the work. By RAW the same DP would go to him the first time ever in his life he goes to write a song.

Except that even a very famous sculptor is unlikely to have more than Artisan 4(Sculpting +2), and will certainly have that specialization, reducing his dice pool.

As someone who knows a lot of artists, in my experience very few are limited to one form of expression, and many talented musicians can get by quite well even on instruments they've never held before, once they get an understanding for it.

Using Artisan with a specialization and a few complementary Knowledge skills is quite sufficient, I think.

[Midas]

Cuz Forgery is a different skill. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Really though, I'm just saying that you can't have a skill randomly being sliced into different 'sizes' (like Knowledge skills) without making GM decisions all the time, and without being unfair to someone. If you're going to give someone three kinds of Artisan for one, then you have to do it for everyone. It's totally unlike every other Active skill in the game, and that's bad.

I still can't see Artisan abuse ever being a problem. Let them take Artisan and Know skills that back it up, if you like.

I am not sure that the Artisan (Rock front man) skill I mooted was really 3 different Artisan skills - I believe I even said that he would be able to sing, dance around like a rock front man (but wouldn't be good at any 'formal' dance techniques such as waltzing, Thai dance, whatever), and play a bit of guitar. That is hardly 'guitar king' or 'dance king', but fits nicely with what most rock front men would be good at.

[Midas]

Except that even a very famous sculptor is unlikely to have more than Artisan 4(Sculpting +2), and will certainly have that specialization, reducing his dice pool.

As someone who knows a lot of artists, in my experience very few are limited to one form of expression, and many talented musicians can get by quite well even on instruments they've never held before, once they get an understanding for it.

Using Artisan with a specialization and a few complementary Knowledge skills is quite sufficient, I think.

I think a very famous sculptor would have skill 6 + spec, as well as various self-publicizing social skills and a good agent, but there you go.

And while it is true that many artistic people express themselves using a number of media, the number of artists famous in more than one field is very small. Said sculptor might be commissioned to build sculptures for AAA megacorps, but still only attract a crowd of 50 to his accoustic gig or poetry reading ...

[Yerameyahu]

I think that's exactly the point, Midas: 'dance king' is a different size than 'waltz king', and so on. It's just a mess for no reason, because of the 3 conditions I mentioned earlier.

[Mercer]

I find the idea that a character would have "Rock Dance" as his Artisan skill and that the GM would send him repeatedly into waltzing competitions to be, for whatever reason, endlessly hilarious.

That said, other than a character who wants to take high Artisan and Forgery skills to specifically forge valuable works of art (which makes sense for a certain type of character in a certain type of game, but hardly seems like the skill set of the bulk of shadowrunners), I don't see it coming up that much. But it seems pretty easy to look at how the player defines the skill and see if that is at least tangentially related to what the GM has set up. For instance, the skills of a rock front man includes dance so would probably be good on things that have to do with dancing. The skills of a painter, even a world class one, probably wouldn't. That seems like a pretty easy decision to make.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

I would cap the artisan skill dice with the level knowledge skills - eg. you have artisan 4, rock stage performance 4 und sculpting 1 -> for rock stage performance you would roll INT+4, for sculpting INT+1, every other application of artisan: default

[Yerameyahu]

A rock front man shouldn't be dancing, anyway. He should be rocking.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

A rock front man shouldn't be dancing, anyway. He should be rocking.

Tell that to Angus Young... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mercer]

But what if he has the moves like Jagger?

[snowRaven]

I think a very famous sculptor would have skill 6 + spec, as well as various self-publicizing social skills and a good agent, but there you go.

And while it is true that many artistic people express themselves using a number of media, the number of artists famous in more than one field is very small. Said sculptor might be commissioned to build sculptures for AAA megacorps, but still only attract a crowd of 50 to his accoustic gig or poetry reading ...

I disagree on the sculpting, generally - and this goes for most forms of artistic expression except photography, music and dance, really.

Most forms of artistic expression that generate fame and money today aren't at all about technical skill - living famous painters, sculptors and performance artists rarely have what would qualify as more than 2-4 in artisan skill. Art today is mainly about attracting the right people and having ideas that they like, and while there are painters, sculptors etc today that are very technically skilled in their craft, they aren't generally in the upper echelons of the art world. Artistic expression is much more important than actual skill in whatever medium the artist choses, but the most important of all is connections - getting the 'right' people to like you and promote you.

Some examples from modern times: Jackson Pollock, Louise Bourgeois, Damien Hirst, Andy Warhol.

The same goes for literature, to a certain degree. The most popular authors are usually not world-class experts in actual writing, grammar, literary composition, and linguistic ability - they may not even have the 'best' stories out there, but they got their stories to the right person at the right time, and received the advertising they needed.

Even in music you'll find a lot of people who aren't really great singers, or great musicians, or great composers, that bring down the big bucks because they get the right exposure and can convey something that the audience likes. Often they are carried by writers, musicians, or singers that have high skill, but earn a lot less money than the 'star'.

Only a small percentage of those highly skilled at their craft will ever earn more than a decent salary or become world famous. And only a small percentage of those who earn the big bucks and have global fame have actual one-in-a-million skill in their craft.

[Critias]

I don't think it's really fair to claim that's a modern thing, though. It's not like the 20th or 21st century invented the notions of sell outs, or it's not what you do, it's who you know, or patronage, or whatever. Dumb stupid luck and getting the right people to like you have always been a big part of the art world -- or, well, hell, the rest of the world, too, for that matter.

[pbangarth]

I see where you are coming from, snowRaven, and cannot really argue with what you say, if the success of a Skill is expressed solely in selling your work or making a name for yourself in the general public. Among those in the community of the artistic form in question, though, the talent and quality of product of a "high Skill rating" practitioner is usually understood and respected.

In terms of SR Skills and their application to SR situations (runs), that latter form of success is more often likely to represent success in SR, don't you think?

[Savar]

heh, busking, Artisan(mime) and Etiquette(street) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
need to skill at mime to do the moves, need to etiquette to know what is entertaining ?

or Artisan(instrument) and Etiquette(noble ?) for playing for a social function ?

to make money would be a mix + needing the contacts

hmmm that is assuming that requiring the Artisan skill to be given a subject media ?

[snowRaven]

I see where you are coming from, snowRaven, and cannot really argue with what you say, if the success of a Skill is expressed solely in selling your work or making a name for yourself in the general public. Among those in the community of the artistic form in question, though, the talent and quality of product of a "high Skill rating" practitioner is usually understood and respected.

In terms of SR Skills and their application to SR situations (runs), that latter form of success is more often likely to represent success in SR, don't you think?

Oh, definately! I was arguing the point that someone with a high Artisan skill basically could write their own meal ticket. Even if you had Artisan 7 with a specialization in sculpture, that alone doesn't mean that there will be a demand for the sculptures you make.

[Mercer]

Considering that art is subjective there probably doesn't need to be a mechanic for it, but if we were going to make one we could make it however we wanted. If we wanted to say that the Artisan skill doesn't necessarily represent technical skill and it doesn't represent inspiration but rather the approximate nuyen value of artistic creations, we can. I mean two people can look at a Jackson Pollack painting and one can think it's a crit success and the other thinks it's a crit glitch-- that's down to personal taste. But if you say the painting is selling for 80k, that's a number we can break down and figure out how many successes on a skill it takes to get there. Some people may like the painting, some people may hate it, but at the end of the day it's worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it.

Sure, it's a cynical way of looking at things and doesn't have anything to do with artistic merit, but I don't think artistic merit can be put in the system anyway. The problem with modern art, to quote Calvin and Hobbes, is knowing who is kidding whom.

To put another way, we could say Artisan 7 (sculpting) means there is a demand for the sculptures you create, it just doesn't mean that the sculptures are any good.

[Yerameyahu]

That seems simply crazy, though. All skills represent *skill*. Technical ability, even in various arts, is something that everyone agrees exists. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mercer]

The problem being in this particular area, it's all subjective. The ability to perfectly render something in a given medium doesn't equate to it being an artistic success. Artisan doesn't cover technical ability, or if it does, then it doesn't cover artistic ability in any meaningful way.

[Yerameyahu]

I don't think Artisan has anything to do with 'artistic success'. I think it's about technical ability, like every other skill.

[Glyph]

If you want to be a "successful" artist in Shadowrun, you do it by taking a level of the Fame positive quality and a level of the Day Job negative quality. You can be a superb artist and not be commercially successful - just like you can be a superb mage, superb hacker, or augmented killing machine and not be making the big bucks in a (relatively) cushy corporate gig.

I personally dislike limiting the artisan skill with knowledge skills, because knowledge skills are a very finite resource, and you need to flesh out your charcter's background, hobbies, etc. You shouldn't have to blow all of those points just to get what the basic skill is supposed to give you, anyways. I prefer letting the player pick a broad area, such as rocking (singing, several instruments, rapping, songwriting, choreography, etc.), and maybe a few other quirky artistic hobbies (maybe the rocker likes sitting on his porch and painting watercolor seascapes, or writing essays and freeform poetry in his liveblog). Generous? Maybe, although it's more limiting than RAW. But I think characters should be encouraged to take skills like artisan.

[snowRaven]

I don't think Artisan has anything to do with 'artistic success'. I think it's about technical ability, like every other skill.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Artistic creative ability isn't really quantifiable in that way (or in any way) as it largely rests in the opinions of others. There's really no way at all to determine if the creativity and artistic quality of a certain piece is higher or lower than that of a similar piece, you can only judge technical skill in it's creation, popularity, and price-tag. The last two are quite arbitrary.


I also agree with Glyph - I'll encourage players with Artisan skills to take a supportive knowledge skill or two, that not only better defines their primary craft but also gives them 'extra' skill in that area. For Artisan (Painting +2) it could be stuff like 'Famous painters of the 21st century', 'Surrealist Art', or whatever. Stuff that help define the character, and add to the Artisan skill rather than limiting it.

[Mercer]

The last two (popularity or price tag) are arbitrary, but we can arbitrarily link them to successes as easily as anything else. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That said, I'm fine linking Artisan ranks to technical skill since that makes more sense in the context of the system (skill ratings linking to a fairly defined ability). But that seems to make it easier to determine what someone in that level of skill could produce. A portrait painter isn't making art to be sold (though they may in their spare time), but rather painting portraits on contract for people who want their portraits to look like (the best possible version of) them. A singer/musician who is playing small bar gigs isn't there to blow people away with their songwriting ability, they're there to produce reasonable facsimiles of songs people already know. A violist would make their living playing either in a symphony (at the high end of the skill rating) or at weddings, funerals and brunches. (Any of these Artisans could be replaced with the technological version, but having an actual person do it would probably be a high-end niche market.) None of these would be creating anything in the artistic sense necessarily, but would still be producing things using the Artisan skill.

[snowRaven]

The last two (popularity or price tag) are arbitrary, but we can arbitrarily link them to successes as easily as anything else. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That said, I'm fine linking Artisan ranks to technical skill since that makes more sense in the context of the system (skill ratings linking to a fairly defined ability). But that seems to make it easier to determine what someone in that level of skill could produce. A portrait painter isn't making art to be sold (though they may in their spare time), but rather painting portraits on contract for people who want their portraits to look like (the best possible version of) them. A singer/musician who is playing small bar gigs isn't there to blow people away with their songwriting ability, they're there to produce reasonable facsimiles of songs people already know. A violist would make their living playing either in a symphony (at the high end of the skill rating) or at weddings, funerals and brunches. (Any of these Artisans could be replaced with the technological version, but having an actual person do it would probably be a high-end niche market.) None of these would be creating anything in the artistic sense necessarily, but would still be producing things using the Artisan skill.

Exactly.

[Jet]

It's a whole wierd can of worms (or is it wyrms). We do use Artisan like the Exotic Weapon skills and make you buy them individually, but there is a lot of diversity in form and function for the skill.

Example:

Artisan skill (sp: Jazz Music) lets me play/write a song.
Street Knowledge: Jazz Music lets me know who is out there in the Jazz Clubs
Academic Knowledge: Jazz Music gives me the history and musical definitions of Jazz music and its derivitives
Professional Knowledge: Jazz Music lets me know how to get gigs and what contracts to avoid
Interest Knowledge: Jazz Music lets me know Jazz trivia of my choice

Any and all of these are viable uses depending on what you want to do. A character with a high Artisan skill might indeed be a musical powerhouse, but have no business sense whatsoever. That is where the manager with the professional skill and no musical ability earns his keep. A professor with a high academic knowledge may not be able to carry a jazz tune in a basket but can tell you all about the differences of two jazz songs based on the influences of their roots. Each use of the skill should be tailored to the character concept.

It has never been a big deal for us either; we just like to be thorough in our fluff for backgrounds. If I ever ran a rocker campaign it might be more pertinent, but at the moment the ability to create carnage and destruction is the main focus of our group.

[Jet]

Oh sorry P.S. a lot of artists of all types don't become popular until after their death, so yeah it is not always strictly about technical ability. There are a lot of factors that influence popularity.