I think I screwed up my Shadowrun game Options

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

I don't know what spirits you face, but a F3 spirit doesn't survive a clash with gangster w/ heavy pistols and a DP of 6. F4 spirits seldom get harmed. The Street Sam in my group laughs at F5 spirits, and F6 spirits also do not live long - with a Ruger Super Warhawk + APDS/AV ammo, you harm F6 spirits and most drones on 1 net hit. F7+ starts to get tough, F8+ is TPK.

[snowRaven]

The official ruling is that burst-fire narrow bursts do not count; by the letter of the rules, full-auto narrow bursts *do* count, unless the book has been errata'd. That's the sort of "official ruling" I was looking for. It is possible that they intended for heavily armored targets to be vulnerable to full-auto weapons, which tend to be considerably larger and more trouble to fire than small arms. Of course, Assault Rifles can Full-auto, so that puts a hole in that theory...

Looking at the Ranged Combat Cheat Sheet from Runner's Toolkit, I found this:

17. Add your net hits to your weapon + ammo DV; this is your modified
DV. If this number is greater than the defender’s armor modified
by your weapon + ammo AP, it causes Physical damage, otherwise
it causes Stun damage.
18. If your fire mode is one of the narrow bursts, add one less than the
number of rounds in the burst to your modified DV.

That makes it clear that you compare DV to armor before adding for any narrow burst (short, and long, and full bursts).

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

I'm still not sure we can be certain of the intent of the rules. If we go with your interpretation, then you can still hurt a spirit with a machinegun....by using a wide spread and getting more net hits. How does that make more sense? You're going to penetrate the thickened armor of a Spirit/Dragon/Tank by spreading bullets all over the general area? Why does that make more sense than affecting the same target with a narrow burst?

Because no weapon has a damage cap, it's theoretically possible for any weapon to hurt anything, regardless of how ridiculous that might be.

RAI is irrelevant. What you need to think about is a consistent and plausible interpretation.

Does it make sense that I can take a weapon that can fire BF and FA, and simply by setting a switch and firing more bullets, can suddenly defeat armour that was previously impenetrable?

As to the wide burst issue: YES, essentially they don't make more sense. But that, too, is irrelevant, because they consistently do the same thing: Reduce defense. Basically in SR spray&pray can end up being more accurate (by hitting more vulnerable locations, for instance), than actually aiming at those. Although, that's not strictly true, because the deadliest thing is usually still a called shot. Without RC burst fire gets about 0.33 damage per die sacrificed for wide bursts, 1 DV that does not count for penetration with narrow bursts, and 1 DV that does count for called shots.

This means that with an uncompensated weapon a called shot is always best, even in semi-auto. Let's not get into the mess of doing called shots with wide bursts (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .

[thorya]

The Abrahm definitively has not RHA armor, I'd even say that no tank more recent than the 60's uses it except as the base hull with the armor added on. It's used as a benchmark to compare various designs of armor and weapons, that's why the armor is rated as RHA equivalent. In the Abrahm's latest iteration, the turret front is rated at 800mm (three feet) to 1300mm (four feet) depending on what you're shooting at it.

True, the Abrahm has Chobham, Depleted Uranium, and Reactive Armor on top of the RHA. I'm guessing though that you're not going to aim for the heavily armored front turret that's designed to thwart the weapons of other tanks. You're probably going to aim for places where the armor is thin or the frame underneath is exposed. If you're good enough to put every shot in the same hole, it's not unreasonable that you could aim for the thinnest part of the armor, avoiding the heavy reactive armor plates and the aftermarket depleted uranium upgrades. (Which I've been thinking about since, and it seemed really ridiculous at first, but with we don't actually know what a 20-24 dice pool means in the real world and what they're capable of, since the best shooters in the world right now are supposedly at a 12-14 max) Of course, if you're crazy enough to try it, maybe you're crazy enough to aim for the most heavily armored section of the tank. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[JonathanC]

Looking at the Ranged Combat Cheat Sheet from Runner's Toolkit, I found this:



That makes it clear that you compare DV to armor before adding for any narrow burst (short, and long, and full bursts).

Ah, that does strongly imply that there was simply an omission in SR4A. Thanks, snowRaven.

[snowRaven]

Ah, that does strongly imply that there was simply an omission in SR4A. Thanks, snowRaven.

No problem - was typing up all the relevant sections from SR4A and decided to check the cheat sheets on a hunch (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[JonathanC]

No problem - was typing up all the relevant sections from SR4A and decided to check the cheat sheets on a hunch (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'm a little disappointed in the result (mainly because I think spirits/magic are a little too strong), but I can see how it makes full-auto against mundane targets more deadly than is probably good for game balance.



Alternate idea: Maybe I could send them on a metaplanar quest for the spirit's true name? IIRC, mundanes can enter metaplanes with help from a mage....the detective could send them on the quest, while waiting behind safely.

[snowRaven]

Alternate idea: Maybe I could send them on a metaplanar quest for the spirit's true name? IIRC, mundanes can enter metaplanes with help from a mage....the detective could send them on the quest, while waiting behind safely.

Quests are fun.

Mundanes normally can't go on them though - to send them there would require the Astral Gateway power, an astral rift, or guided use of the magical compound Shade (or magic rituals at the level of great dragons and immortal elves).

[JonathanC]

Quests are fun.

Mundanes normally can't go on them though - to send them there would require the Astral Gateway power, an astral rift, or guided use of the magical compound Shade (or magic rituals at the level of great dragons and immortal elves).

I thought there was a way for a mage's pals to tag along and help if he goes on an astral quest for his Initiation? Failing that, it wouldn't be hard to come up with some kind of crumbling gateway/ruin for them to search for.

[ShadowDragon8685]

I thought there was a way for a mage's pals to tag along and help if he goes on an astral quest for his Initiation? Failing that, it wouldn't be hard to come up with some kind of crumbling gateway/ruin for them to search for.

There is - specifically, for a mage to project spiritual copies of his friends from himself, bringing them on Metaplanar Quests. Basically a way for the rest of the group to still have something to do when the Mage goes on a Metaplanar Quest by playing copies of their characters. But only copies: not the real ones. They don't share in any Karma reward from the quest. (On the other hand, they don't share in any danger from the quest, either. The copy can get mangled and shredded and incinerated and the original is safe, too.)

They also only get to go to near Metaplanes. Outer Planes won't have any of that crap, and they don't work. Besides, I don't think "a handful of guys I just met" are near and dear enough to a mage to qualify as people he could take on a metaplanar quest.

Also, trying to send a group of only Mundanes on a Metaplanar Quest would be... Well, it's a death sentence. Even if they got to march through a rift with a Arsenal's and SotA 2073's and War's best equipment, they wouldn't last more than twenty minutes.

[JonathanC]

There is - specifically, for a mage to project spiritual copies of his friends from himself, bringing them on Metaplanar Quests. Basically a way for the rest of the group to still have something to do when the Mage goes on a Metaplanar Quest by playing copies of their characters. But only copies: not the real ones. They don't share in any Karma reward from the quest. (On the other hand, they don't share in any danger from the quest, either. The copy can get mangled and shredded and incinerated and the original is safe, too.)

They also only get to go to near Metaplanes. Outer Planes won't have any of that crap, and they don't work. Besides, I don't think "a handful of guys I just met" are near and dear enough to a mage to qualify as people he could take on a metaplanar quest.

Also, trying to send a group of only Mundanes on a Metaplanar Quest would be... Well, it's a death sentence. Even if they got to march through a rift with a Arsenal's and SotA 2073's and War's best equipment, they wouldn't last more than twenty minutes.

Wouldn't the Gatekeeper guy send them to a metaplane appropriate for them? That's kind of his job. I thought the danger in visiting the Metaplanes was a bit more subtle than just "welcome to a spirit realm where everything wants to kill you". I'd certainly want it to *seem* like a death sentence, though...they're supposed to be making reparations for delivering 3 small children to a horrible death at the hands of a flesh-eating spirit. Just tossing them into a normal fight with the thing, but this time with magical back-up, seems a bit anti-climactic.

[kzt]

Wouldn't the Gatekeeper guy send them to a metaplane appropriate for them? That's kind of his job. I thought the danger in visiting the Metaplanes was a bit more subtle than just "welcome to a spirit realm where everything wants to kill you". I'd certainly want it to *seem* like a death sentence, though...they're supposed to be making reparations for delivering 3 small children to a horrible death at the hands of a flesh-eating spirit. Just tossing them into a normal fight with the thing, but this time with magical back-up, seems a bit anti-climactic.

Wasn't it a fire spirit? A fire spirit seems unlikely to come from a very friendly to people metaplane.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Wouldn't the Gatekeeper guy send them to a metaplane appropriate for them? That's kind of his job. I thought the danger in visiting the Metaplanes was a bit more subtle than just "welcome to a spirit realm where everything wants to kill you". I'd certainly want it to *seem* like a death sentence, though...they're supposed to be making reparations for delivering 3 small children to a horrible death at the hands of a flesh-eating spirit. Just tossing them into a normal fight with the thing, but this time with magical back-up, seems a bit anti-climactic.

Spirits are a classification of enemy against which mundanes do exceptionally poorly. You're suggesting sending them on a trip to somewhere that literally everything is of that classification. Think about that one.

[JonathanC]

Wasn't it a fire spirit? A fire spirit seems unlikely to come from a very friendly to people metaplane.

The child-eating thing? No, no fire involved. I think thinking it was a Spirit of Man.

Spirits are a classification of enemy against which mundanes do exceptionally poorly. You're suggesting sending them on a trip to somewhere that literally everything is of that classification. Think about that one.

Hmm....I haven't decided yet if I'm going to houserule the narrow burst thing, and even if I don't it could be survivable if they:

1. Go prepared (i.e. bring the right kind of ammo)
2. Don't pick any fights, and generally keep their heads down
3. Don't run into anything too awful (i.e. F10 Great Form Spirits, etc.)

I wouldn't make a campaign out of it, but the concept has a certain Stargate-esque appeal, and while I wouldn't want to send them in with a magic NPC to do all the heavy lifting, I could totally see sending them in with some kind of guidance. Show them enough of the magic side of things to give them a good scare. I understand why you'd be reticent about it, but the game already jumped the rails from where I originally wanted it to be...I'm open to following this deviation a bit.

[snowRaven]

Well, there are two ways to do it:

You can send them on a quest to kill the spirit on it's home plane. This means a fight on the spirit's terms, more or less.

Second, you can send them to get the spirit's formula - but to recreate it in the real world I'm guessing they would have to have the Arcana skill...

Either way though, not everything on a metaplane is automatically as hard to kill as a spirit in the real world. Metaplanes are full of metaphor - armor, cyber, and weapons may not take the same forms, and certainly not everything they meet will have Immunity to Normal Weapons.

If you have the cash for it, the old Harlequin's back adventure contains a multi-part metaplanar quest that can serve as inspiration for how characters can change during a quest. If you choose to do a quest for them, try to make the imagery of the metaplane match the spirit. The PCs should change accordingly, even though their abilities should stay roughly the same.

[Chinane]

The child-eating thing? No, no fire involved. I think thinking it was a Spirit of Man.


Hmm....I haven't decided yet if I'm going to houserule the narrow burst thing, and even if I don't it could be survivable if they:

1. Go prepared (i.e. bring the right kind of ammo)

No need to houserule actually, unless you already houseruled stick-n-shock ammo to bring it down to reasonable levels.
That ammo used according to RAW is the right kind of ammo - as long as they generate enough net hits, anyway.

[JonathanC]

Haha, battling the spirit on its home turf isn't what I had in mind. I guess when I said "true name", I meant to say "formula". I was in a really long Mage campaign for most of last year, I guess some of the terminology has slipped into my vocabulary.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

A ruger Super Warhawk with APDS is a good Spirit killer - or a Gauss Rifle ^^

[pbangarth]

Either way though, not everything on a metaplane is automatically as hard to kill as a spirit in the real world. Metaplanes are full of metaphor - armor, cyber, and weapons may not take the same forms, and certainly not everything they meet will have Immunity to Normal Weapons.

For spirits, ItNW is a byproduct of either Materialization (SR4A page 296) or Possession (SM page 102) or Inhabitation (SM page 100). Why would they even have it in the astral or in the metaplanes?

[Yerameyahu]

Why would they even need it? There are no normal weapons on the astral or metaplanes. … Right? How could there be? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[kzt]

Why would they even need it? There are no normal weapons on the astral or metaplanes. … Right? How could there be? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

There are some Ares people who might dispute that. But then they would have to kill you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[snowRaven]

Why would they even need it? There are no normal weapons on the astral or metaplanes. … Right? How could there be? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

While it's not under SR4 rules, there are several metaplanar entities in Harlequin's Back who possess Immunity to Normal Weapons on the metaplanes.

As for SR4:

[ Spoiler ]

In SRM03-09: Something Completely Different there's a pushing the envelope suggestion where the player has to make arguments in order to bypass an Immunity to Normal Weapons power when trying to pass the Dweller, and I believe the final boss (a free spirit) on that quest possesses the Immunity to Normal Weapons as well.

In Artifacts Unbound there's a run that involves a metaplanar quest where the spirits in opposition has Immunity to Normal Weapons, on the metaplane.

[Yerameyahu]

But: *why* would they even need it? There are no normal weapons on the astral or metaplanes. … Right? How could there be? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I mean, I don't care if they have that power, I just can't see how it'd matter.

[snowRaven]

But: *why* would they even need it? There are no normal weapons on the astral or metaplanes. … Right? How could there be? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I mean, I don't care if they have that power, I just can't see how it'd matter.

Of course there are. The metaplanes aren't the astral plane (and some metaplanes have astral planes of their own - see Harlequin's back for that), so any non-magical, non-astral weapon on the metaplanes would classify as 'normal' to the denizens of said metaplane. Like, for instance, the fists of a character.

[Yerameyahu]

Ah. Wacky. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I didn't realize that was the nature of the metaplanes. They've never come up in any game I've ever heard of.