I think I screwed up my Shadowrun game Options

[snowRaven]

I'm sure there's several different ideas of how they work, but basically it's safe to go by: 'Each metaplane works exactly as the GM says' and go from there.

In Harlequin's Back, there's one where all magic is blood magic (of a sort), one where only physical spells are possible because of a lack of astral space, and in each plane all non-foci gear changes into equivalents that fit the metaplane (so an armor jacket may become a chainmail suit, an Ares Predator a Flintlock, and a Combat Axe a Stone axe. Even skills can change, judging from that run (so that 'Pilot Ground vehicle' becaomes 'Dinosaur riding') (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[pbangarth]

Why would they even need it? There are no normal weapons on the astral or metaplanes. … Right? How could there be? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yerameyahu, you and I agree, but are approaching agreement from different directions. As to ItNW working on the metaplanes, I guess it would apply if entities had to materialize/possess/inhabit from the astral plane to get onto a metaplane. Then the descriptions for ItNW I quoted above would apply. But, I don't think that is the case. I recognize that there are a few references in modules to ItNW existing on the astral and/or metaplanes, but the descriptions under critter powers argue against that existence.

Well, now, maybe if a spirit were going to a metaplane different from its own it would have to transform, and so get the power. There's a thought. A being from metaplane X would be as alien on metaplane Y as it would on our material plane, and might have to go through the same mechanism to appear on either.

[snowRaven]

Yerameyahu, you and I agree, but are approaching agreement from different directions. As to ItNW working on the metaplanes, I guess it would apply if entities had to materialize/possess/inhabit from the astral plane to get onto a metaplane. Then the descriptions for ItNW I quoted above would apply. But, I don't think that is the case. I recognize that there are a few references in modules to ItNW existing on the astral and/or metaplanes, but the descriptions under critter powers argue against that existence.

Well, now, maybe if a spirit were going to a metaplane different from its own it would have to transform, and so get the power. There's a thought. A being from metaplane X would be as alien on metaplane Y as it would on our material plane, and might have to go through the same mechanism to appear on either.

Well, you can have the Immunity to Natural Weapons power separately, without using Materializing/possession/inhabiting - it's just a subcategory of the Immunity power. There's nothing in it's description that argues against it existing on metaplanes any more than any other power.

All the entities I mentioned in my post above had the power written up separately under powers - something normal spirits don't have.

The simple fact that physical attributes and standard rules for combat (as well as astral perception) are used on the metaplanes could be taken to imply that a spirit would have to take a physical form (gaining immunity to normal weapons) if they want to be able to affect a metaplanar traveller.

[The Jake]

This is a real grey area. I mean, if you can carry a Panther assault cannon with you on a metaplanar quest (e.g. Astral Gateway power) then I'd assume it would work as normal...

- J.

[Chinane]

Makes one wonder if you can bypass a spirits immunity with a bright pink Ares Alpha with some plush decoration. That's definitely not a normal weapon (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[kzt]

http://www.kittyhell.com/2008/01/18/hello-...t-rifle-update/

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[CanRay]

Makes one wonder if you can bypass a spirits immunity with a bright pink Ares Alpha with some plush decoration. That's definitely not a normal weapon (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

http://www.kittyhell.com/2008/01/18/hello-...t-rifle-update/
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Got a better one.

[JonathanC]

This is a real grey area. I mean, if you can carry a Panther assault cannon with you on a metaplanar quest (e.g. Astral Gateway power) then I'd assume it would work as normal...

- J.

It does, but it will change in its appearance to match the surroundings of the metaplane that you're on (i.e. on a Steampunk-themed metaplane, cyberarms have gears and crap).

As for Spirits materializing on a metaplane...if you're on the spirit's home plane, they would presumably always be physically present, so they might not have the immunity to normal weapons; it's really up to the GM's discretion, I think.

[pbangarth]

http://www.kittyhell.com/2008/01/18/hello-...t-rifle-update/
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Got a better one.

You guys are sick.

[pbangarth]

Well, you can have the Immunity to Natural Weapons power separately, without using Materializing/possession/inhabiting - it's just a subcategory of the Immunity power. There's nothing in it's description that argues against it existing on metaplanes any more than any other power.

All the entities I mentioned in my post above had the power written up separately under powers - something normal spirits don't have.

The lists of powers for spirits argue against ItNW existing anywhere except where spirits can materialize or possess/inhabit. The only two instances in which ItNW is listed as a power for a critter, it comes as a result of another power: Mist Form for vampires and materialization et al for spirits. So from the text of the core book, ItNW for spirits will happen only when they become physical.

The simple fact that physical attributes and standard rules for combat (as well as astral perception) are used on the metaplanes could be taken to imply that a spirit would have to take a physical form (gaining immunity to normal weapons) if they want to be able to affect a metaplanar traveller.

Your assumption here is that a spirit must move from the astral plane to a metaplane in the same way that it goes from the astral to the physical plane, where it becomes 'physical'.

Under Metaplanar Forms in Street Magic, page 129, several opinions suggest "who knows?", but two excerpts argue against physicality on a metaplane:

1) "When a traveller has arrived in a metaplane, he takes on a metaplanar form, similar to an astral form." Not similar to a physical form.

2) "... a metaplanar form can never astrally project as he is already outside his real body, no matter how real his metaplanar form may seem." The modes of transport from astral to physical do not apply here.

[snowRaven]

The lists of powers for spirits argue against ItNW existing anywhere except where spirits can materialize or possess/inhabit. The only two instances in which ItNW is listed as a power for a critter, it comes as a result of another power: Mist Form for vampires and materialization et al for spirits. So from the text of the core book, ItNW for spirits will happen only when they become physical.

There's at least three non-spirit critters with Immunity (Natural Weapons): Lindworm (RW, pg.84), Meistersinger (RW pg. 123), and Echenesis (Parazoology, pg.24).

Then there are people and objects which are a spirit's Hidden Life, or the Chains of Ghosts, and several entities/spirits in modules who have Immunity to Normal Weapons listed as a separate power (AU, SRMs, and the old Harlequin's Back being the most relevant).

Your assumption here is that a spirit must move from the astral plane to a metaplane in the same way that it goes from the astral to the physical plane, where it becomes 'physical'.

Under Metaplanar Forms in Street Magic, page 129, several opinions suggest "who knows?", but two excerpts argue against physicality on a metaplane:

1) "When a traveller has arrived in a metaplane, he takes on a metaplanar form, similar to an astral form." Not similar to a physical form.

Except that it uses the character's physical attributes, normal rules for combat, functioning cyberware, and the possibility of hacking and rigging as approperiate to the metaplane's nature. If every weapon the runners have now counts as magical/non-normal/astral, there would likely have been mention of that as an exception when the rules state 'normal rules for combat'. Also, metaplanar forms talk solely of characters projecting onto metaplanes - nothing on spirits and the forms they take on their own plane. There are several existing mentions of 'the astral' on metaplanes, however (see below).

2) "... a metaplanar form can never astrally project as he is already outside his real body, no matter how real his metaplanar form may seem." The modes of transport from astral to physical do not apply here.

Yes, this goes for the character because he is already outside of his body - so he has nothing to project. However, he can use astral perception, which is clear evidence that the metaplanes do indeed have something akin to an astral space. If not, he should always view astrally - regardless of if he is mundane or awakened (or not be able to at all - which is less likely).

Evidence in favor of spirits being able to have Immunity to Normal Weapons on metaplanes:

- Existing spirits with the power written up in their stat block on metaplanes (Artifacts Unbound, Harlequin's Back(I know; it's not SR4, but it's the most comprehensive description of metaplanes in any edition of the rules))
- The fact that combat on metaplanes works exactly like standard combat; not astral: Normal rules for combat indicates that spirits would have to materialize to affect non-dual, non-percieving characters.
- The fact that character's projecting onto metaplanes can use astral perception there.
- SRM2-18 mentions: 'bound spirit appear as normal'; 'astrally there is a ward'; 'astrally, there is magic imbedded in it'.
- SRM3-09 speaks of the Dweller summoning 'astral constructs' who have Materialization, and it speaks of ways for the players to bypass the constructs' Immunity to Normal Weapons. The main 'boss' on the subsequent metaplane has Immunity to Normal Weapons as a separate power, as well as Materialization.

If spirits don't have Immunity on their home plane, they are easier to kill in their home world than in our world, which doesn't sit well with me.

That said, it should be entirely possible to have a metaplane where there is no physical world; only an astral (and vice versa). The rules will be different from plane to plane, as determined by the GM.

[JonathanC]

The thing is, if a Spirit is on its own home plane, then it shouldn't have the Immunity, because it isn't materializing; even if there *is* an astral plane, the Spirit isn't being summoned from it.

That said, I see no reason why the Spirit wouldn't have other benefits while residing on its home plane. Traveling to a Spirit's home plane in order to destroy it sounds like a good adventure to me; after all, the Ring had to be taken back to where it was made in order to be unmade. But remember, it's the journey there that is most perilous. Tracking a Spirit to it's home plane and actually reaching it should be the challenge; the ability to fight a Spirit without its supernatural protections is the reward for surviving the perils of the journey.

[snowRaven]

The thing is, if a Spirit is on its own home plane, then it shouldn't have the Immunity, because it isn't materializing; even if there *is* an astral plane, the Spirit isn't being summoned from it.

That said, I see no reason why the Spirit wouldn't have other benefits while residing on its home plane. Traveling to a Spirit's home plane in order to destroy it sounds like a good adventure to me; after all, the Ring had to be taken back to where it was made in order to be unmade. But remember, it's the journey there that is most perilous. Tracking a Spirit to it's home plane and actually reaching it should be the challenge; the ability to fight a Spirit without its supernatural protections is the reward for surviving the perils of the journey.

Are you saying that normal bullets, fists and swords should damage a spirit on it's home plane, even though it is a purely astral being there? Or are you saying that even if there is an astral plane there, the spirit would be a physical creature on it's home plane and not an astral one?

Which stats would you use for a spirit on it's home plane? Force for all attributes, or with the listed physical stats?

[JonathanC]

Are you saying that normal bullets, fists and swords should damage a spirit on it's home plane, even though it is a purely astral being there? Or are you saying that even if there is an astral plane there, the spirit would be a physical creature on it's home plane and not an astral one?

Which stats would you use for a spirit on it's home plane? Force for all attributes, or with the listed physical stats?

I'm saying that, IIRC, weapons and equipment brought into a metaplane are transformed into weapons/equipment appropriate for the metaplane. If we're talking about a spirit's "home" plane, then it makes no sense for it to "Materialize" there from the astral. I would probably go with the assumption that the spirit is dual-natured in its home plane.

I don't think that the process of visiting a spirit's home plane and fighting it there, even if it isn't as heavily armored, would be "easy" by any measure though. Simply reaching the plane should be a challenge, and when you get there...you don't belong there. You've rolled into someone's neighborhood and are trying to kick his ass in front of his friends and family. This is going to be a problem.

[snowRaven]

I'm saying that, IIRC, weapons and equipment brought into a metaplane are transformed into weapons/equipment appropriate for the metaplane. If we're talking about a spirit's "home" plane, then it makes no sense for it to "Materialize" there from the astral. I would probably go with the assumption that the spirit is dual-natured in its home plane.

I don't think that the process of visiting a spirit's home plane and fighting it there, even if it isn't as heavily armored, would be "easy" by any measure though. Simply reaching the plane should be a challenge, and when you get there...you don't belong there. You've rolled into someone's neighborhood and are trying to kick his ass in front of his friends and family. This is going to be a problem.

Yes, the weapons indeed transform into stuff approperiate to the metaplane. I just don't see why that would make them automatically any better at damaging a spirit?

The spirit still has 'Astral Form' power though, so if the spirit is dual natured it would be present both astrally and physically, which would either require using it's Materialization, Possession, or Inhabiting - or giving it Dual Natured power. Or remove Astral Form and treat it as a physical entity.

Nothing suggests that a spirit's powers change or are applied differently on a metaplane, and we know that combat works as normal, and characters can still astrally perceive (meaning that they aren't by default astral forms).

The other option is to interpret the 'like astral form' comment to mean that the characters are astral forms and thus have to use Astral Combat (except based on physical stats) - in which case only natural attacks and weapon foci would work. Published runs with metaplanes contradict this, however.

[snowRaven]

I'm saying that, IIRC, weapons and equipment brought into a metaplane are transformed into weapons/equipment appropriate for the metaplane. If we're talking about a spirit's "home" plane, then it makes no sense for it to "Materialize" there from the astral. I would probably go with the assumption that the spirit is dual-natured in its home plane.

I don't think that the process of visiting a spirit's home plane and fighting it there, even if it isn't as heavily armored, would be "easy" by any measure though. Simply reaching the plane should be a challenge, and when you get there...you don't belong there. You've rolled into someone's neighborhood and are trying to kick his ass in front of his friends and family. This is going to be a problem.

Yes, the weapons indeed transform into stuff approperiate to the metaplane. I just don't see why that would make them automatically any better at damaging a spirit?

The spirit still has 'Astral Form' power though, so if the spirit is dual natured it would be present both astrally and physically, which would either require using it's Materialization, Possession, or Inhabiting - or giving it Dual Natured power. Or remove Astral Form and treat it as a physical entity.

Nothing suggests that a spirit's powers change or are applied differently on a metaplane, and we know that combat works as normal, and characters can still astrally perceive (meaning that they aren't by default astral forms).

The other option is to interpret the 'like astral form' comment to mean that the characters are astral forms and thus have to use Astral Combat (except based on physical stats) - in which case only natural attacks and weapon foci would work. Published runs with metaplanes contradict this, however.

[JonathanC]

For the sake of simplicity and logic, I would say that a Spirit on its home plane has the Dual Natured power; it makes no sense for them to still exist primarily on the astral plane when they're in their home plane.

[snowRaven]

For the sake of simplicity and logic, I would say that a Spirit on its home plane has the Dual Natured power; it makes no sense for them to still exist primarily on the astral plane when they're in their home plane.

...unless the astral plane of their home plane is their primary home. Spirits being creatures of pure mana, and all.

That, and published material indicating otherwise. No published stats for a spirit on their home plane include Dual Nature.

[Yerameyahu]

The metaplanes are simply too insane to bother thinking about. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[JonathanC]

...unless the astral plane of their home plane is their primary home. Spirits being creatures of pure mana, and all.

That, and published material indicating otherwise. No published stats for a spirit on their home plane include Dual Nature.

If the Astral Plane of that Plane is their primary home, then that Plane is not really their home Plane, now is it?

[snowRaven]

The metaplanes are simply too insane to bother thinking about. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

...not for those of us who are insane! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)


(well, okay...even for us!)

[snowRaven]

If the Astral Plane of that Plane is their primary home, then that Plane is not really their home Plane, now is it?

Of course it is - the astral plane and the physical plane are inextricably linked. Says so in Street Magic somewhere.

Besides, you're not expecting the astral plane of a metaplane to be a separate metaplane, are you?

[CanRay]

The metaplanes are simply too insane to bother thinking about. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

...not for those of us who are insane! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

(well, okay...even for us!)

Speak for yourself.

[snowRaven]

Speak for yourself.

Shhh! I'm trying to placate the sane people!

[Kolinho]

My brain is dripping out from my ear.