I think I screwed up my Shadowrun game Options

[JonathanC]

Of course it is - the astral plane and the physical plane are inextricably linked. Says so in Street Magic somewhere.

Besides, you're not expecting the astral plane of a metaplane to be a separate metaplane, are you?

No, but when we speak of the "home" plane of an entity, it implies that it is their HOME PLANE. Not simply a place that is attached to their Home Plane. Also, just because you have physical attributes on a metaplane doesn't mean that it is a physical plane, per se. If it works as you describe, then there is almost no reason to ever go to a Metaplane (unless you're looking for a formula). In fact, Metaplanes have little reason to exist, since nobody actually exists there.

Spirits are supposed to be coming to our plane via our Astral plane from another Metaplane, right? In fact, Street Magic p.133 seems to agree with this idea in the section on "Destroying a Spirit Utterly":

"Defeating a spirit in combat in the physical world or astral space only disrupts the spirit...to absolutely destroy a spirit forever, in order to prevent it from ever returning, he must undertake a metaplanar quest to the spirit's home metaplane and defeat it there."

It then goes on to describe this as a difficult task, not because of a supernatural toughness, but because spirits "...have carefully guarded homes and lesser spirit servants to protect them."

Looking through the chapter on Astral space and the Metaplanes, there isn't anything to even suggest that the metaplanes have their own separate astral space; there's just one astral, and it's between our plane and the metaplanes (sort of, I think).

[snowRaven]

Looking through the chapter on Astral space and the Metaplanes, there isn't anything to even suggest that the metaplanes have their own separate astral space; there's just one astral, and it's between our plane and the metaplanes (sort of, I think).

I disagree - there are a number of things suggesting it (some only by omission, but still):

- The fact that people can still use astral perception (it would've said 'assensing' if it was one plane)
- The statement that they can't project because they are already outside of their body, instead of 'because there is no astral space'.
- The fact that there is no mention of spirits losing their Astral Form power, or others losing their Dual Natured power.
- The fact that there is no mention of called/summon spirits working any differently.
- The fact that there are no mentions of things like Wards working any differently on the metaplanes.

Plus, it is strongly insinuated by the fact that there are published adventures where there's clear mention of the astral on metaplanes. However, the best source is from SR2 and thus not valid besides proof of original intent, and the other is SRMs, which may not be considered 'full canon' (not sure about that one).

That said, there's also suggestions that not all metaplanes have an astral component (again, mainly Harlequin's Back).



As for the astral and the physical - since they are linked together, and mana flows between them freely, you can't really go to one and not the other. Even if you are a purely astral form, you'll see the shadows of the physical world all around you - even if you have no astral presence, your aura is only present in the astral. There's no reason why that duality couldn't exist on the metaplanes as well, and as I've pointed out above there is evidence that it does in at least some cases.

I'll concede that it's probably best to treat a spirit as a dual being on a quest where you are trying to kill it - otherwise it can just zip away at the speed of thought, and your quest becomes impossible. However, there's nothing in the rules suggesting that this is the case - and there are things in the rules that suggest it isn't the case.

However, even treating it as a dual being I'd say it gets the Immunity to normal weapons against whatever the PCs have that isn't weapon foci, magic or fighting with astral perception.



The thing is, since you obviously base the capabilities of the PCs on physical stats and normal rules for combat, claiming that the spirit is a purely astral form on it's metaplane (which it is by the rules unless it's using masking/possession/inhabitating) you end up with one of two situations:

1 The characters are also astral forms (though based on physical stats) and thus would use astral combat rules, limiting them to weapon foci, astral attacks and such.
2 The characters are physical forms, using normal combat rules, and the spirit would thus be beyond their grasp unless they activate astral perception.

Option 1 is contradicted by the claim that normal rules for combat are used.
Option 2 is contradicted by the insanity that arises trying to fight astral spirits as dual natured forms.

The third option would be that the spirit's astral form and the characters physical forms exist on the same plane, and in that case I'd say that any non-astral, non-magical weapons would indeed be limited by an ItNW. Whether that's an immunity inherent to the spirit or a weakness inherent to the weapons can be debated...



At the end of the day, it's clearly stated that no one really knows how the metaplanes work (or why), and I for one would say that all three options are viable. You could even shift between them during one astral quest, if you really want to screw with your players.

Going by the only applications of the rules that are present, we see the following interpretations among SR4 authors:
- A spirit will have a separate Immunity to Normal Weapons power on a metaplane.
- Spirits will have their normal powers on the metaplane, and ItNW as a function of their materialization, and I'll mention 'astral' several times.
- I'm just gonna tell you to use standard stats for spirits, mention astral a few times, but give no other suggestions.

And the older sources, SR2 authors:
- Metaplanes are screwy: some have astral space, some don't; some beings have ItNM, some don't - change skills, weapons, appearance and abilities of your PCs at your hearts desire. Go nuts.

I'll go with that last option, and at my table, the answer to all questions posed above will be: "It depends - do you feel lucky, punk?" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[JonathanC]

I never said that there wasn't *a* Astral plane attached to the metaplane; I said that they don't have a *separate* one. Spirits are not native to Astral Space; they're native to their Metaplane. Street Magic is very clear about this; The spirit's home metaplane is where they're from, and they would exist physically there (which is why killing them there is permanent). If the Spirit was still an astral being on their native plane, then killing them would be impossible, because defeating a spirit in astral space just banishes it.

I can't speak for the Harlequin adventures, other than to say that adventures can sometimes have odd rules, and Harlequin was a 2nd edition module, IIRC. If a Spirit normally has Immunity to Normal Weapons as a power, then yes, they would still have it on their home Metaplane. But if they are only getting it as a side effect of Materialization or Possession, then they would not have it on their home metaplane, because they are not materializing or possessing anything.

[snowRaven]

I never said that there wasn't *a* Astral plane attached to the metaplane; I said that they don't have a *separate* one. Spirits are not native to Astral Space; they're native to their Metaplane. Street Magic is very clear about this; The spirit's home metaplane is where they're from, and they would exist physically there (which is why killing them there is permanent).

Well, it can't be the same astral plane as the one attached to our world regardless. If we take the rule of metaplanar form to apply to any being on a metaplane (one form, no astral part), including spirits, the metaplanar form would be based on physical stats. But spirits don't have physical stats unless materialized/possessing/inhabiting...

If they do on their metaplane, then why wouldn't there be any mention of that in the rules? All we have is 'combat works as normal' and 'metaplanar form is based on physical stats'. Anything else is house-rule realm.

But if we agree that spirits have a physical form on the metaplane, make it dual natured, base it on the spirit's physical stats - why would they suddenly be vulnerable to attacks that aren't manabased? They are still pure mana. Or are you saying that all weapons on a metaplane must be manabased because it's a metaplane? That contradicts 'normal rules for combat'.

I can't speak for the Harlequin adventures, other than to say that adventures can sometimes have odd rules, and Harlequin was a 2nd edition module, IIRC. If a Spirit normally has Immunity to Normal Weapons as a power, then yes, they would still have it on their home Metaplane. But if they are only getting it as a side effect of Materialization or Possession, then they would not have it on their home metaplane, because they are not materializing or possessing anything.

Yeah Harlequin's Back is SR2 - it only serves as precedent for Immunity to Normal Weapons existing on metaplanes, both as part of spirits summoned on them and as part of creatures native to them. Only reason I bring it up is because it's one of the very few instances where the rules of any metaplane are given stats, and it contains several different examples.

In the SR4 stuff, the authors have either:
- given the spirit a separate power of Immunity to Normal Weapons on it's home plane (both instances; SRM3-9 and Artifacts Unbound)
- had spirit-like 'manifestations of a character's subconscious' use Materialization on the metaplane (1 instance; SRM 3-9),
or
- not made any mention of it beyond listing 'Materilization' and 'Astral Form' in the stat block for a spirit that is only encountered on a metaplane, and said 'see normal stats' for all other spirits there (unclear if they are native to that plane or not, though). (1 instance; SRM2-18)

There's no precedence whatsoever in published material for giving spirits dual nature, removing astral form, or forcing characters to reply on astral combat. The only power ever added to the stat block for free spirits on metaplanes is 'ItNW' which I believe they can't take as a power. That's why I'm fairly adamant that regardless of how you choose to handle things in regards to astral or no astral plane and single or dual metaplanar forms, it is highly likely that spirits on their native plane have Immunity to Normal Weapons, and that non-magic equipment the character's have with them would count as normal weapons on said metaplane.

Even if you say that 'character gear is a project of their selves carried with their metaplanar form' I'll say - so? When they go to our plane, spirits can't hurt mundanes at all with their abilities unless they materialize or we go astral, why should we be able to hurt them on their plane without using special abilities?

[JonathanC]

Even if we do not give them the dual-natured trait, it doesn't change the fact there is nothing in either SR4A or Street Magic (which I would consider the canon sources for RAW in this case) which suggests that Spirits have to Materialize to be present on their Home Plane. Think of the Astral as the creamy middle between the two chocolatey wafers of their Plane and our Plane, in the great Oreo Cookie of the universe. When they pass through the Astral to reach our plane, they gain certain abilities because of what they are. When they are in their home Plane, they do not.

The "normal" in "Normal Weapons" refers to mundane things from "our" Plane. When you travel to a Metaplane, you and your stuff aren't "normal" anymore.

It makes no sense for a Spirit to gain ItNW from Materialization on its home Plane; It's just *there*. If the rules worked as you're suggesting, it would be incredibly retarded (to the point of asking "why are there rules for this?) to ever attempt to fight *anything* on a metaplane. You'd have more resources and an easier supply line if you fought whatever it was on our Plane, and if you were going on a Metaplanar quest, your time would be better spent obtaining the Spirit's Formula (with which you could simply force it to destroy itself, or leave you alone forever, or whatever). Leaving the Spirit with its immunities sounds like an artificial way to increase combat difficulty, and one that goes against the spirit of the rules, since killing a Spirit in its home plane is *supposed* to be difficult because it's his home and he has all of his stuff/people/whatever there, not because he remains unkillable due to some rules nonsense about his Home plane not really being his Home Plane.

[snowRaven]

Even if we do not give them the dual-natured trait, it doesn't change the fact there is nothing in either SR4A or Street Magic (which I would consider the canon sources for RAW in this case) which suggests that Spirits have to Materialize to be present on their Home Plane. Think of the Astral as the creamy middle between the two chocolatey wafers of their Plane and our Plane, in the great Oreo Cookie of the universe. When they pass through the Astral to reach our plane, they gain certain abilities because of what they are. When they are in their home Plane, they do not.

The "normal" in "Normal Weapons" refers to mundane things from "our" Plane. When you travel to a Metaplane, you and your stuff aren't "normal" anymore.

Not quite - "This immunity applies to all weapons that are not magical (weapon foci, spells, adept or critter powers)."

It makes no sense for a Spirit to gain ItNW from Materialization on its home Plane; It's just *there*. If the rules worked as you're suggesting, it would be incredibly retarded (to the point of asking "why are there rules for this?) to ever attempt to fight *anything* on a metaplane. You'd have more resources and an easier supply line if you fought whatever it was on our Plane, and if you were going on a Metaplanar quest, your time would be better spent obtaining the Spirit's Formula (with which you could simply force it to destroy itself, or leave you alone forever, or whatever). Leaving the Spirit with its immunities sounds like an artificial way to increase combat difficulty, and one that goes against the spirit of the rules, since killing a Spirit in its home plane is *supposed* to be difficult because it's his home and he has all of his stuff/people/whatever there, not because he remains unkillable due to some rules nonsense about his Home plane not really being his Home Plane.

I'm going by the indications left by various writers of the game, which I hope where writing in the spirit of the rules as they saw them. I'm not the one suggesting it; published Shadowrun material is suggesting it. Nothing in Street Magic (or any preceding rulebook dealing with metaplanes, for that matter) says anything about spirits losing any of their powers on their home plane, or combat working any differently there.

Since we are using normal rules for combat, you have to either make it physical combat (with mundane weapons) or astral combat (using those skills etc, which screws mundane runners on an astral plane over even more).

But, for arguments sake lets say that the spirit is in it's natural form - unable to materialize because it's only one plane, and thus with no ItNW - it's Astral Form power will then prevent all damage from physical attacks or physical spells. All attacks against it must be astral or mana based. This would mean that neither the spirit nor he mage attacking it can use physical spells, and even if all weapons the runners bring along somehow become astral versions, they'd have to use Astral Combat to use them - remember how combat works normally, so no using physical skills with astral attacks. But then we also have another problem: characters can use astral perception on the metaplane. Which would mean that the spirit can't affect the runners unless they have that ability.

Nowhere does it even suggest that a spirit's powers work differently on the metaplane - making them do so is house rules...

I think you are reading your preconceptions of how you think it should work into the rules.

[JonathanC]

The alternative - that even on its "home plane", a Spirit remains a materialization of an Astral being, is equally ridiculous, and equally impossible to kill (it can always dematerialize into the Astral, and if you follow it there to kill it, it will just re-appear on the plane after a few days).

There is no logical outcome to the situation unless you make some kind of house-ruling.

[snowRaven]

The alternative - that even on its "home plane", a Spirit remains a materialization of an Astral being, is equally ridiculous, and equally impossible to kill (it can always dematerialize into the Astral, and if you follow it there to kill it, it will just re-appear on the plane after a few days).

There is no logical outcome to the situation unless you make some kind of house-ruling.

Correct.

My house rule will likely be that spirits on their home plane are treated as metaplanar forms rather than astral or physical; basing their stats on the physical form, using normal rules for combat, and retaining the immunity to normal weapons that their physical form would have. However, they can't go fully astral (or zip to their metaplane, since they are there already).

I'd make exceptions as it suits the campaign, metaplane and spirit in question. (For instance, if the PCs are going to the metaplane of a spirit lacking materialization, inhabiting and possession, I'd rule that the spirit is intangible on it's home place as well, only vulnerable to astral attacks but manifested and forced to normal movement rates)