I think I screwed up my Shadowrun game Options

[Daylen]

@Daylen
We were talking about the influance power. Or at least I was talking about it.
There is no way you may stop a force 10 spirit alias johnson from using that on you.
This thing will probably have aura masking, it may possibly appear in any form it likes. So the only thing you may get up front is the fact, that the guy you will meet with has no "background".

This all really depends on how much RP is in your RPG. If you are used to getting to know everything about your NPCs down to the name of any pet animal they had since they were born, it is easy for the players to get behind it. And in such a game there will be hundreds of occasions to make a will roll against the influance power. If you don't...

Yes I know its about the influence power. My point is that players should make sure such a power can't be used on them to any detrimental affect. It doesn't matter if the power would work if the players make sure it never gets used on them.

[Irion]

@Daylen
There is no way.
The only way to find out if you are talking to a free spirit is force him to read something on a screen. (If your GM goes along with the interpretation from RC that they can't and that it is not fixed by taking the low light vision power)

Other than that? A realistic form free spirit has NO HISTORY, NO NEED FOR FOOD, NO NEED FOR SHELTER (Hell not even air).
Those things take "living off the grid" to a new level.

This power is used in one action with NO WAY of seeing it coming. There is NO defence against it (Other than increasing willpower to max, which can only be done by the increase willpower spell.) And even with a Willpower of 9 or even 12, a spirit with force 9 or higher will probably "win".
The the only option would be resisting with edge...

[kzt]

Yes I know its about the influence power. My point is that players should make sure such a power can't be used on them to any detrimental affect. It doesn't matter if the power would work if the players make sure it never gets used on them.

You can't. Counter magic doesn't impact it and I'm not even sure by RAW you can detect it in use. It's mental command, so you don't have to be able to understand the spirit or even hear it. The only solution is to avoid being in proximity to a spirit.

[kzt]

Other than that? A realistic form free spirit has NO HISTORY, NO NEED FOR FOOD, NO NEED FOR SHELTER (Hell not even air).
Those things take "living off the grid" to a new level.

And just like runners buy fake IDs, a FS can do exactly the same thing if it feels like it.

[Irion]

@kzt

And just like runners buy fake IDs, a FS can do exactly the same thing if it feels like it.

Which adds insult to injury... (Meaning not only are you close to unable to trace them, they have also all the possibilities to spoof an identity... And due to the fact, that they do not need to stick to one human form, it is even worse)

[Daylen]

...The only solution is to avoid being in proximity to a spirit.

Now you're starting to get the idea. The whole team, if any, should never be in proximity to an unknown. And by having pre agreed to rules of how to conduct meets the team should be able to figure out if any magic is being used against their representative. I take it you've never played in a party (as a mundane) where a fellow player was a magic user and was determined to have things their way and screw the rest of the party.

[Daylen]

@kzt

Which adds insult to injury... (Meaning not only are you close to unable to trace them, they have also all the possibilities to spoof an identity... And due to the fact, that they do not need to stick to one human form, it is even worse)

However, a decent team should be able to realize a switch of some sort happened; that alone should be enough to figure out what is going on.

[Glyph]

While I think the game is recoverable, I do think making it such a high Force spirit was a mistake, for a group of mundanes. I mean, forget the Influence power, the thing also has 24 points of hardened armor, 12+ dice for passive dodging... there really isn't much they can do to it. If the Force hasn't been set in stone yet, I would consider drastically reducing it, to something that can, at least, be damaged with difficulty by full-auto fire. Otherwise, there isn't much of a point - it's an NPC that the group won't be able to harm in any way.

[Irion]

It was pointed our earlyer, that this is most likely the most benefitial outcome for the runners, this scenario had to offer. (Unless they had access to some Deus ex machina,like the sword of spiritslaying)

So the run is salvageable BUT for the futur make sure the runners may reach the goals you are aiming for.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

While I think the game is recoverable, I do think making it such a high Force spirit was a mistake, for a group of mundanes. I mean, forget the Influence power, the thing also has 24 points of hardened armor, 12+ dice for passive dodging... there really isn't much they can do to it. If the Force hasn't been set in stone yet, I would consider drastically reducing it, to something that can, at least, be damaged with difficulty by full-auto fire. Otherwise, there isn't much of a point - it's an NPC that the group won't be able to harm in any way.

Full Auto Fire does not count for purposes of defeating Hardened Armor. It must penetrate before adding the FA modified damage. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
But yes, a Force 10+ Spirit is crazy powerful. You really do not need more than Force 6 to pull this scam off with a Free Spirit.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Full Auto Fire does not count for purposes of defeating Hardened Armor. It must penetrate before adding the FA modified damage. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
But yes, a Force 10+ Spirit is crazy powerful. You really do not need more than Force 6 to pull this scan off with a Free Spirit.

Which is why you use FA wide burst with APDS (or cheat&shock, if you're so inclined) to at least maximise your net hits. However, a high force spirit (and if the force isn't set in stone, I would quietly retcon this) has so many dice just for reaction, and full def will likely still leave it some dice - with edge - to avoid being hit by 10 net hits. That being said, every full defense is a round won. The other option is sniping it. Get one of those ridiculous guns from WAR and full-auto snipe it with edge and APDS. If you're lucky you'll get enough hits, and then a narrow burst will make sure you actually kill it. Actually, scrap that, use a Called shot narrow burst for +4 with maximum add-on aiming. Called shots entirely make no sense against spirits, but are still perfectly RAW.

Personally, though, I would try to catch it between a rock and a hard place and bring out the blasties. If you can get the spirit to get into an armoured vehicle and then blow it up from the inside, that might work. This will require some play, though:

You lure it into the vehicle to do something, and then need a convenient excuse to leave. The involved PC won't have to move too far away from the vehicle, because the blast will be contained, so maybe just pretending to want to stop at a food stall might work. A spirit of high force should be immeasurably sure of itself to the point of arrogance, because realistically so few things can hurt it. It might be smart to play on that arrogance.

Another option is simply a narrow alley. If the runners were to pretend to want to do more business, she might be lured to a meet. And then you simply make use of the explosives rules - only direct lines get reflected and amplified. So if the runners stand just a few meters away, with her ideally standing directly between the explosion and a wall, she'll take the maximum chunky salsa brunt, while they just take the normal blast and survive. I've had runners use a taser to fire the charge just at the right moment, so, say, the runners wait for her in the alley, while one of them keeps a concealed taser on standby. When she she passes the object where the bomb is hidden, the runner fires the taser at a bit of blast-chord that connects directly to the primer on the big charge. Don't use a fuse, since that will delay things. Of course, a simple detonation switch will also work, but blast chord is just simpler, and likely requires little to no explosives skill.

[Seriously Mike]

@Seriously Mike
Sorry, but negative clues are very often "the GM did not think about it" and are ingame ignored.

Yes, you can take a jump at the GM whenever the shadows he is describing do not fit the time of day...

The "Thats not my mom"-part sounds like a decent give away, but again I was not in the room. I do not know how this turned out in play.

Well, I believe in the Law of Conservation of Detail - the GM should expect players start searching for any info on the Johnson and should have it handy - simple BS jobs should have basic info like "Dude Dudeson, manager at Brofist Brass Knuckle Co., small-time stingy bastard, now sod off.", bigger hitters should have either vague hints at being bigger hitters or some testimonial rumors (or both), maybe more if your info digging skills are high, but when a guy's a black hole it's a flag you're screwed (I have a similar case in my campaign - I still have no idea who the Johnson is and what'd he want. I think I'll stick with who I based him on and make him the head of a clandestine government/corporate (flip a coin) mercenary/shadowrunner outfit). LoCoD would also make me raise a flag when I heard of a string of kidnappings and the job being connected to it by the media and police.

@Seriously Mike:
Your earlier comments were harsh, and your advice borderline unfun. That's all I was getting at. Even with all the investigations in the world they would not have been able to stop the deal the moment they met the J in the park, because at that moment they would have been officially dead, or worse. Their investigations would have had to produce precise info that they are dealing with a spirit, and also precise info as to how to deal with her.

Personally, the run could really not have gone any other way. I would have said an F8 spirit is PLENTY to make a group of mundane runner piss their pants; depending on their hardware I would have used F7 or 8, personally. I am currently GMing a run not unlike this one, and I'm still debating with myself how high to go with the force. And we DO have a perfectly capable mage. The spirit still has the edge in each individual DP.

Point taken, which of course doesn't change the fact that they had enough hints to never even see the Johnson for the second time (when I think of it now, the Barrens bit should have started with some low-level mook fight for a place to lay low and then serve as a breather for the players to fix their stuff and gather some more info). However, I think I've missed how powerful the spirit exactly was. Really F10+?

While I think the game is recoverable, I do think making it such a high Force spirit was a mistake, for a group of mundanes. I mean, forget the Influence power, the thing also has 24 points of hardened armor, 12+ dice for passive dodging... there really isn't much they can do to it. If the Force hasn't been set in stone yet, I would consider drastically reducing it, to something that can, at least, be damaged with difficulty by full-auto fire. Otherwise, there isn't much of a point - it's an NPC that the group won't be able to harm in any way.

I looked into Shedim for my campaign and came to a conclusion they're monstrous even at F5. Of course my team is a tad short on dakka, which doesn't change the fact that spirits usually have a crapload of nasty magical tricks at their disposal, AND that crazy armor. Even 10 points of Hardened Armor stop most weapons.

It was pointed our earlyer, that this is most likely the most benefitial outcome for the runners, this scenario had to offer. (Unless they had access to some Deus ex machina,like the sword of spiritslaying)

So the run is salvageable BUT for the futur make sure the runners may reach the goals you are aiming for.

Coming up in the next session: "Combat Mage: The Next Generation"!

[Irion]

@Seriously Mike

I looked into Shedim for my campaign and came to a conclusion they're monstrous even at F5. Of course my team is a tad short on dakka, which doesn't change the fact that spirits usually have a crapload of nasty magical tricks at their disposal, AND that crazy armor. Even 10 points of Hardened Armor stop most weapons.

Well, the problem is mostly how SR works at the high end.
The guy with the first net-hit on an attack wins...

Spirits get to ignore up to 2 points of Damage per point of Force.
Spirits may soak 2/3 Points of damage per point of force.
Spirits get additional HP of Force/2.

I think this makes it quite obvious.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Well, I believe in the Law of Conservation of Detail - the GM should expect players start searching for any info on the Johnson and should have it handy - simple BS jobs should have basic info like "Dude Dudeson, manager at Brofist Brass Knuckle Co., small-time stingy bastard, now sod off.", bigger hitters should have either vague hints at being bigger hitters or some testimonial rumors (or both), maybe more if your info digging skills are high, but when a guy's a black hole it's a flag you're screwed (I have a similar case in my campaign - I still have no idea who the Johnson is and what'd he want. I think I'll stick with who I based him on and make him the head of a clandestine government/corporate (flip a coin) mercenary/shadowrunner outfit). LoCoD would also make me raise a flag when I heard of a string of kidnappings and the job being connected to it by the media and police.

Well... the team DID do some legwork, apparently, just didn't turn up anything much useful, or didn't act on it. Perspective matters in this respect. My players are pretty acute by now when things are off (I did give them a nice double-cross on the first run I GMed for them), but then I tend to be heavy handed with dropping the hints - if they roll their perception or data search or whatever well enough, I will point out "you notice this and that". Which will usually be things that are out of the ordinary. But IMHO you have to train your players to look out for these things, and above all make them expect that they will be able to act on this information.

Point taken, which of course doesn't change the fact that they had enough hints to never even see the Johnson for the second time (when I think of it now, the Barrens bit should have started with some low-level mook fight for a place to lay low and then serve as a breather for the players to fix their stuff and gather some more info). However, I think I've missed how powerful the spirit exactly was. Really F10+?

IMHO low level mook fights tend to waste time and be fairly boring. Of course, low level mooks with automatic weapons can quickly change that, but...

I also don't know where the F10 came from. I looked over the thread again and found no immediately visible reference to the force. Maybe this was actually a mixup with the other thread that dealt with an F10 free spirit?

So...concerning not ever showing up at the meet: I think there's a disconnect in perspective here: Things are off. ok. But with Johnsons, things SHOULD be off. Because a good J will reveal as little as possible. Also, I am inclined to say that this isn't so much a character problem, as a player problem: Do you have your character walk away from a meet because a few things don't add up? Possibly pissing off your GM in the process? From YOUR perspective, the way you argued before, not showing up would result in some sort of smackdown.
And from a character perspective: Even IF the kids say that this is not their mother... these guys are runners. Where do you draw the line? And then what do you do? The only convenient way to deal with a possible double-cross - and mind you, that never happened, the J was true to her word, the runners got paid - is always use sniper cover. To that I've heard (on these boards) that J's should demand that all members are always present at the meet. So... then you need to hire a sniper or use a drone. But now, at what point do you tell your overwatch guy to take his shot? Just to save some kids you could care less about? Remember the J didn't actually do anything to them, just possibly lied about the kids.

I looked into Shedim for my campaign and came to a conclusion they're monstrous even at F5. Of course my team is a tad short on dakka, which doesn't change the fact that spirits usually have a crapload of nasty magical tricks at their disposal, AND that crazy armor. Even 10 points of Hardened Armor stop most weapons.

Well... a decent shooter can make any assault rifle and subgun with decent ammo deal with 10-12 points of hardened armour. I think above that it becomes difficult. If none of the runners have heavy machine guns or sniper rifles and S&S is not an issue in the group, then an F7 spirit should be enough to make a prolonged fight with the PCs. If S&S is spammed, or the PCs have heavy weapons of various types - AV rockets, an abundance of willy pete grenades or similar, I think you need F8.

In my group we don't spam S&S, and it was nerfed a bit. We had one encounter, before I GMed, with a regular non-free F7 (actually F6 aspected domain) spirit, and our sam hurt it, but couldn't kill it.
Then again I've used 10-15 dice opposition to seriously injure our mage's F6 spirits. Still couldn't actually kill one with bullets alone, just got them down to two or three boxes.

[kzt]

Which is why you use FA wide burst with APDS (or cheat&shock, if you're so inclined) to at least maximise your net hits. However, a high force spirit (and if the force isn't set in stone, I would quietly retcon this) has so many dice just for reaction, and full def will likely still leave it some dice - with edge - to avoid being hit by 10 net hits.

None of these really help. At best you force it onto the metaplane for a month. Then it comes back, finds you with search, then kills you by materializing in your bedroom at 2am and manabolting you, then sets fire to building. An angry high force free spirit is crazy dangerous.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

None of these really help. At best you force it onto the metaplane for a month. Then it comes back, finds you with search, then kills you by materializing in your bedroom at 2am and manabolting you, then sets fire to building. An angry high force free spirit is crazy dangerous.

True enough.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It'll be a character decision on whether it actually wants to do these things. Who knows? Spirits don't have to act like humans.

[Irion]

The ingame logic kind of breaks if you think about free spirits.

With the introduction of free spirits as PCs there should have been several rules put in place. As it stands nothing stops a free spirit from going force 5 to 15 in about a year.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The ingame logic kind of breaks if you think about free spirits.

With the introduction of free spirits as PCs there should have been several rules put in place. As it stands nothing stops a free spirit from going force 5 to 15 in about a year.

Nothing Stops a Standard PC from doing so, assuming the karma is therr; which you are already assuming for the Free Spirit, apparently.

[kzt]

Nothing Stops a Standard PC from doing so, assuming the karma is therr; which you are already assuming for the Free Spirit, apparently.

No, it's that a FS has a bunch of tools that they can use to gain karma at a crazy rate while not doing anything.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No, it's that a FS has a bunch of tools that they can use to gain karma at a crazy rate while not doing anything.

Only if the GM is crazy and allows the FS-PC to have those obscure/questionable powers. I wouldn't.
The only immediately available one I can see is the Spirit Pact for Healing. Which will possibly allow some amount of Karma to flow in, assuming the pacted Characters actually use this ability. Don't really see it though.

[Daylen]

@Daylen
There is no way.
The only way to find out if you are talking to a free spirit is force him to read something on a screen. (If your GM goes along with the interpretation from RC that they can't and that it is not fixed by taking the low light vision power)

Other than that? A realistic form free spirit has NO HISTORY, NO NEED FOR FOOD, NO NEED FOR SHELTER (Hell not even air).
Those things take "living off the grid" to a new level.

This power is used in one action with NO WAY of seeing it coming. There is NO defence against it (Other than increasing willpower to max, which can only be done by the increase willpower spell.) And even with a Willpower of 9 or even 12, a spirit with force 9 or higher will probably "win".
The the only option would be resisting with edge...

Are you arguing with me or yourself? You have claimed something is impossible yet given some clues and methods that show otherwise.

So what if the power is used instantaneously and works perfectly? Simply don't be there for it to work on you. Send a random idiot that is being paid to obey your commands through a comm link or send a single member of the party rigged up similarly so others can hear and see independently and not be effected. Watch the dumby to see what is tried on him. When he doesn't ask your question something is up, when he does something outside the plan something is up.

You guys really lack imagination when dealing with magic users.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You guys really lack imagination when dealing with magic users.

I prefer dealing with magicians from the business end of a Barrett... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Critias]

Are you arguing with me or yourself? You have claimed something is impossible yet given some clues and methods that show otherwise.

So what if the power is used instantaneously and works perfectly? Simply don't be there for it to work on you. Send a random idiot that is being paid to obey your commands through a comm link or send a single member of the party rigged up similarly so others can hear and see independently and not be effected. Watch the dumby to see what is tried on him. When he doesn't ask your question something is up, when he does something outside the plan something is up.

You guys really lack imagination when dealing with magic users.

All of which requires an amount of paranoia likely not to be found in a trio of players who are new to the game, and who -- as mundanes -- may or may not have any idea in or out-of-character what magical threats are out there.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

You guys really lack imagination when dealing with magic users.

Except if you're mundane you haven't slightest that you actually ARE dealing with one until they do obviously supernatural stuff. And then you have to be completely paranoid of EVERYONE. Which makes the game largely unplayable, like a rock-paper-scissors one-upping contest. Believe me, I've been there (yes, actually the rock-paper-scissors (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ). There's a reason you either need a mage in the group or have to play in a low-magic world. It doesn't really work well any other way.

I don't even see a reliable way to do this, in game. So you meet a J - even one you don't know, and for whom the fixer can't vouch in any way. The J is expecting to see his team, but instead he sees some random Joe, and just maybe might spot a guy a half a click away watching through the business end of a sniper rifle. Do you see him doing business like that? My Js would walk away, even the stupid ones, and especially the non-legit ones.

[snowRaven]

Full Auto Fire does not count for purposes of defeating Hardened Armor. It must penetrate before adding the FA modified damage. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
But yes, a Force 10+ Spirit is crazy powerful. You really do not need more than Force 6 to pull this scam off with a Free Spirit.

Was this changed anywhere? Afaik, the Hardened Armor (modified by AP) must be at least equal to the modified Damage Value to negate the attack, and Immunity says that it works as Hardened armor.