T-birds, How practical... Options

[The Jake]

How large is a t-bird exactly and just how common are they in the cities? Not the milspec ones - but can someone drive one around a city or not? May sound like a dumb question but I really don't care.

- J.

[Stahlseele]

There ARE no civilian T-Birds O.o
They are about as big as a Tank.
So not very common in the cities.
And driving them around there?
That would be pretty hard i think.
Kinda like flying an attack chopper.
In a sprawl. Made of skyscrapers.

[Inu]

LAVs aren't common in the city due to the fact that they need to go fast and low in order to fly (as they effectively ride on a cushion of air generated by their downforce). So basically, they're open country only. The modern equivalent are mostly used on water: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_effect_vehicle

[Manunancy]

They're expensive, gaz-guzzling pieces of high tech, so I'd say about as common as supercars, strectch limo, big ass super-luxury SUV and the like.

Another ballpark could be somewhat along today's prevalence of light choppers.

Which would make them an uncommon sight, but not rare enough to raise the sort of eyebrows a full-fledged tank would cause. The richest and trafic-logged the area, the more common they would be.

note : they're full-fledged VTOLs, it means you can probably hover or move at low speed on thrust alone, especially if you're using lighter grande armor than what' slapped on the military ones. But in those conditions the range will suck.

[TwoDee]

I would personally rate them as a very strange thing to see, and they'd DEFINITELY turn up on the local corp's radar without serious precautions during a run (if not literal radar, then figurative). That said, the one place that I would probably rate them as being fairly common, at least in areas that the runners might opt to visit, is Los Angeles. Not only is that sort of eccentricity encouraged there, but the whole place is half underwater.

[TwoDee]

EDIT: sorry, double post.

[The Jake]

Yep. This all confirms what I was thinking and reinforcing my views on this. It's never been widely discussed to the best of my knowledge except perhaps an old novel back in SR1 days.

Thanks

- J.

[Stahlseele]

There are some T-Bird SMUGGLERS, but they don't operate inside city limites.
They go cross country and use liberated military T-Birds to do their work.

[Manunancy]

I would personally rate them as a very strange thing to see, and they'd DEFINITELY turn up on the local corp's radar without serious precautions during a run (if not literal radar, than figurative). That said, the one place that I would probably rate them as being fairly common, at least in areas that the runners might opt to visit, is Los Angeles. Not only is that sort of eccentricity encouraged there, but the whole place is half underwater.

There shouldn't be too much trouble with the local law as long as it belongs to someone who can afford it - a corporate immatriculation, tagged to a well know ork rap name, that sort of things. Especially if it's a civilian-oriented design withou the avionics, weaponry or rmor of a military bird.

Having the bird tagged to some John Doe who's total spending in town is a 2 nuyen burger at the local McDonalds will have the law keeping it under close watch. Even worse if the papers says it's decomissioned army bird with the military grade hardware removed. Yeah right, they're going to buy it....

[Irion]

If you got the proper IFF and paperwork, yes you can.
If not, you get shoot down.

But it will be a lot of paperwork.
And you will have regular inspections.

[Mister Shed]

According to Spy Games (pg 16) T-birds are quite common in Denver, apparently because the sector governments didn't want their own smugglers shot down.

Relevant paragraph from Spy Games:

[ Spoiler ]

Of course, no discussion of air travel in Denver would be complete without a mention of the mighty thunderbird. The t-bird is not, of course, the craft of the powerful executives or highlevel politicians, but even though they don't fly it, that doesn't mean they don't use it. Everyone knows how popular t-birds are among smugglers, and for a time there were people agitating for a shoot-on-sight law for any t-birds that took to the skies in the area. The thing is, while the various sectors don't like people smuggling things into their territory, they also tend to have their own smuggling operations that they care about. They might get to down some of their rivals if a t-bird bounty was enacted, but they'd also lose some of their own craft. To forestall this, sector governments started finding more legitimate uses for the t-bird. They promoted the use of them in aerial sports, encouraged small shipments of goods to be transported from sector to sector with them, and found other uses. The eventual effect was that you could no longer see a t-bird in the sky and assume it was a smuggler.

[CanRay]

Pretty much all that was going to be said has been said about T-Birds. They fill a role of Attack Helicopter and Light Recon Tank combined, and some possibly as Troop Transports and Supports (The Skraacha from Arsenal makes me think that's how the Cascade Orks sold it to the SSC Military to allow them to build them.).

Essentially, I see them as really fast Mil Mi-21 Hinds or Sikorsky UH-60 Black Hawks, with probably the same adaptability in roles.

For smuggling, you can get a few thousand kilos on the birds, which for low-weight/high-priced commodities (drugs, chips, shadowrunners, magical reagents, etc.), pays for the fuel and maintenance easily. They were also central in the role of keeping communities supplied during the chaos of Crash 2.0, as their disorganized state allowed them to perform supply runs on their own basis rather than trying to work with a supply chain. This has not been forgotten by said communities, and they're able to get a lot of support from the locals in way of supplies, hiding out in old barns or warehouses, R&R, and other such support.

[Wolfgar]

So if T-Birds are not common in Seattle or urban areas, what are those flying contraptions on the front of the SR4 book cover? I thought T-birds were flying cars until I asked you guys a while back.

[The Jopp]

I wouldnt rank them as "common" vehicles but they can be damn fast couriers. I'd say as rare as a limo and most likely not (normally) owned by private joe citizen.

Still, good radar absorbing paint, ruthenium and fake vehicle identification numbers can do wonders.

[Manunancy]

I wouldnt rank them as "common" vehicles but they can be damn fast couriers. I'd say as rare as a limo and most likely not (normally) owned by private joe citizen.

Still, good radar absorbing paint, ruthenium and fake vehicle identification numbers can do wonders.

I'd rather go with ECM or some other tech gizmo rather than radr absorbing paint/materials for something that's supposed to move around under a legit (even if faked) cover : even if the transponder transmits a legit code, the air control is going to wonder why said transponder is emitting from a corner of air their radar says is empty....

[CanRay]

So if T-Birds are not common in Seattle or urban areas, what are those flying contraptions on the front of the SR4 book cover? I thought T-birds were flying cars until I asked you guys a while back.

Air Spirits summoned by magicians that are pissed off there's no flying cars yet. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Sengir]

So if T-Birds are not common in Seattle or urban areas, what are those flying contraptions on the front of the SR4 book cover?

Not every VTOL vehicle is a T-bird (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[kzt]

There are some T-Bird SMUGGLERS, but they don't operate inside city limites.
They go cross country and use liberated military T-Birds to do their work.

Which pretty interesting considering how awful the range of a tbird is.

[kzt]

This has not been forgotten by said communities, and they're able to get a lot of support from the locals in way of supplies, hiding out in old barns or warehouses, R&R, and other such support.

Which still doesn't buy you many monocrystal turbine blades, engine actuators or C checks. Or many 10,000 liter bladders of Jet A.

[CanRay]

Have we gotten stats on how good the range is on a T-Bird? I know they're gas guzzlers, but they probably also have big fuel tanks... And Smugglers would put on extra tanks to give them additional fuel for maneuvers and range.

[Fix-it]

Which still doesn't buy you many monocrystal turbine blades, engine actuators or C checks. Or many 10,000 liter bladders of Jet A.

It does buy you a barn to park in, and a warm meal while the heat blows over.

[kzt]

Have we gotten stats on how good the range is on a T-Bird? I know they're gas guzzlers, but they probably also have big fuel tanks... And Smugglers would put on extra tanks to give them additional fuel for maneuvers and range.

We have numbers in Rigger 3. They get 20 liters of jet fuel per kilometer. Not 20 km per liter, 20 liters PER kilometer. Tanks don't have a lot of space to add fuel tanks, and you can't casually strap on fuel tanks on a flying vehicle as it's easy to screw up CG or the aerodynamics.

[CanRay]

We have numbers in Rigger 3. They get 20 liters of jet fuel per kilometer. Not 20 km per liter, 20 liters PER kilometer. Tanks don't have a lot of space to add fuel tanks, and you can't casually strap on fuel tanks on a flying vehicle as it's easy to screw up CG or the aerodynamics.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

[Udoshi]

How large is a t-bird exactly and just how common are they in the cities? Not the milspec ones - but can someone drive one around a city or not? May sound like a dumb question but I really don't care.

- J.

There IS the piper brat from arsenal.

Its like the rich kid's private mini-jet

[Stahlseele]

We have numbers in Rigger 3. They get 20 liters of jet fuel per kilometer. Not 20 km per liter, 20 liters PER kilometer. Tanks don't have a lot of space to add fuel tanks, and you can't casually strap on fuel tanks on a flying vehicle as it's easy to screw up CG or the aerodynamics.

. . . You remember that this is, basically, EXACTLY what they are doing TODAY?
And the average T-Bird has about the same aerodynamics and CG the average BRICK has . .
The only difference between these two is the fact that one is slightly larger and houses turbines that create enough force to lift and propell it . .
As for the 20l per kilometer . . if i ain't mistaken, compared to todays military jets, this is still rather good enough, right?