Banned/Restricted Gear, Mainly Enhanced Artwinkulation + ME Options

[Greyfoxx]

the AVS isnt unbalancing. the "flechette only" part is a BIG DEAL if you'd really think about it. Having a different gun that can be loaded with all sorts of ammunition is something i never take for granted.

And though it maybe cheap it's still almost has twice the cost of most standard Hvy Pistols out there.

[Darkest Angel]

Never had a problem with Enhanced Articulation, and can't see ME being that much of a problem, it's major benefits aren't combat oriented, and it's 'side effects' are long sighted bonuses, consequently most people I game with would rather take the short term, low cost, easy to find bonus over ME, especially given that usually we don't allow Cultured at character generation, and getting 45k in game is almost unheard of. Add in the short lifespan of runners, and I guess you can see why they're not as popular as you'd think.

[DR.PaiN]

[Everial]

First: to whomever pointed out that it's only getting to certain skill levels faster, not allowing more (in an infinite karma-scenario)
I. How fast you get there does matter.
II. In theory, there isn't a limit to skills and limits, so it does save karma.

Second: to all those people that said 'Obey the FAQ' (or something similar) I would merely say that the FAQ's suggestion of disallowing Cultured Bioware @ chargen essentially IS penalizing the bioware, by increasing the availability rating above 8.

Third: To the people who've pointed out that they're all going to die anyways... well, of course they are. If you're going to be that fatalistic, take it all the way. Don't even play the fucking game because you're going to die, too, eventually, and forget everything, and this will all have been nothing.

[DR.PaiN]

[Laughlyn]

Here, here!

I feel the same way. If the player in my game decided on a used/prototype vehicle and decide to the push the envelope (ie stress points) at the wrong time. I have no problem with having something go out. It's happened before with the group. Rigger failed the stress roll and crashed. Something like 3 runners from the party died.

It happens. This isn't a cartoon with a series that needs to continue.

[Mongoose]

As a M&M playtester / contributing author, one of the notes in my feedback on the bioware section was that "maybe the Mnemonic enhancer should make improving skills easier, reducing karma costs somehow depending on its levle".

I nearly choked when I saw thew published version.

Much more reasonalbe (IMO) would be either:

a- add the ME level to the linked attribute, making higher levles of skill easier to achieve

b- Allow the ME to reduce the cost of raising any given skill by 1 karma, a number of times equal to its level.


Enhanced articulation isn't so bad, but a more realistic benefit would just be +1 combat pool die & +1 reaction. Being hyperflexable should potentially help dodge tests, but it shouldn't be a huge aid in rapid firing a gun, and would be next to no help in most technical situations. +1 combat pool die would cover that fairly well.

[Laughlyn]

Well, we don't blame you. :grinbig:

[sir fwank]

you still die when you take D damage. i need a piece of cyber/ that gives me a new level on the condition monitor before i die. like supadeadly (SD). or possibly a cyber/bio mod that gives me naval condition monitor. :biggrin:

seriously, why not just adjust the threat/difficulty of the opponent. i am totally aware that the higher your stats get the easier things are but just raise the difficulty of said thing. or give the opposition Enhanced artic. the system is only unbalanced when one side has what the other doesn't. vetran runners should not always be doing cakewalk jobs with mundy underpaid security guards.

mmmm....+1 combat pool...

[Greyfoxx]

Heh. Veteran runners shouldnt do cakewalk jobs with mundy underpaid sec. guards if they have any respect left for themselves.

[Solidcobra]

Okay, so instead of liking RPing a character and growing to like him/her/it you want the players to min-max, powergame and munch, and to die horribly and repeat it? Shadowrun isn't Unreal Tournament, it's a P&P RPG (although my games tend to go the "Metal Slug" route, but anyway!)

[The White Dwarf]

To the guy that said it penalizes bioware by changing the availability, no it doesnt. The number is exactly the same to find it once the game starts. And its the same as asking for betaware, and applying the tn mods, and getting something below 8 and claming you can start with it. If the availability was only there for chargen it you simply have a yes/no column not a number.

And about skill limits, there may be no hardcoded limit, but 8+ is considered world class. As in a handful of people in the world (relative to world pop anyhow) have attained such skill in that area. If you follow the trianing rules, and that descrition, and the linked attributes, it becomes increasingly difficult to advance the skill (as well as pointless at some point, youll have enough dice to win). So I dont feel that whole "you can keep raising your skill" argument is really a valid one, because there are so few scenarios where it would ever become an issue of game-balance proportions.

And the speed at which you raise skills does matter some, in the sort term. If it takes you 3 adventures to max a skill versus 5, yeah youre ahead a little. But thats not really so big an advantage either, unless youre constantly winning by one success (in which case youre just relying on luck to win) its of little consequence mathmatically. Its just the perception of having bigger numbers on your page and feeling ahead in most cases. Ill concede that being able to get several lower raiting skills quickly is nice to provide some overlap in team skill coverege, but then again thats overlap and not really giving you any new advantage (other than flexibility). But if you want to pay for and track down and implant a ME3 after the game has begun, in order to have some team flexiblilty, well that can be considered a fair investment.

[Greyfoxx]

Uhhh, were u referring to me, Solidcobra? coz i dont get your point. :)

[Solidcobra]

whatever, i'm not gonna complain to you, after everything you've done to me (etc. etc....)......

i was talking to dr.pain btw....

[Greyfoxx]

Well, you cant blame him. As his name suggests. :)

[Solidcobra]

heh, i suppose! :D

[Kagetenshi]

[Comedian]

How about the Super Shock? Unresistable 10S(stun) for roughly a grand?

[Bölverk]

Unresistable in what way? I must be missing something in the rules somewhere.

[Curugul]

[Tiralee]

Ohhh, now that's a good point. (the +7 skill)

Hell, if half of the company mooks had the "World-class, insta-death-with-a-gun" rep, why in hell would the various corps pay _heavy_ nuyen for guards?

Just kit a few of these super-shots with tricked up pistols and watch and laugh as the street-sams die from 100m away to multiple headshots.

My gun skills are on 6, AND yes, I've got EA, but I find that it's more useful in giving me that slight edge, like "faking" a B/R skill roll that I _Need_ to make.

The skills you haven't got are the ones you pay most for, usually in blood, in blown missions (If everything is going as planned, it's time to change DM's :)) and sheer "ok, now, let's see if you've lost a leg".

The EA enhancement is useful, but not really a game-killer. The bad-guys can have it...

But I find snipers are a more cost-effective way to instilling fear and paranoia. AV rounds, APDS rounds, they're cheaper than any cyber.

[The White Dwarf]

Skill 8 is world class guys. Yea, the company man has 7. Yea runners can get to 6+1 at starting (not 8, reflex recorder is cultured, but you could specialiaze). The point is that runners and company men are supposed to be above the average, the elite, the ones you pay to do the hard jobs.

Lemme put it another way. How would you be expected to succed in a run against something as basic as a security guard / ganger if you had their skill ratings. Why would a megacorportion put a mission in your hands, and trust that your skill of 4 got it done right.

Its important to note that 8+ is world class. The + there means there will be some distinction between the guy that is "good" and the guy that is "very good". But their both in the same boat, relative to the rest of the world, way above the curve.

And I dont think claiming they could just replace their average security with a few higher skilled people is viable. I mean, one surprise round could take care of that, or an area attack. Numbers are needed for defense, you cant just look at skill. And the good talent is high priced, unless you have a bad fixer ...

[Laughlyn]

Curugul
You seem to forget that the skill ratings simply make you world class. Do you know how many known world-class shooters are out there? Take the ones that get to compete in the Olympics for starters, then go from there. Just because you have high skill doesn't mean you get to become known. So yes, a skill of 8 is world class. A skill of 14 or higher is ultra-elite.

Tiralee
Do the simple math. How many people does it take to guard a large facility? How many are on duty, how many are off duty, how many are sick, etc. Having 2 or 3 people isn't the way to do it. Anyone working manpower issues knows that.

[DR.PaiN]

[darloth]

Well, my opinion on that would be to say that people enjoy watching their characters grow, learn new things, and make a name for themselves... And the threat that they -could- die helps this, but everyone (Should?) try not to kill people off without a reason. On the other hand... either of the things you mentioned WOULD be a good reason. A really bad diceroll, i'd tend to say no, as thats luck, and really annoying, whereas choosing to do something silly and dying is okay. (On the other hand, deadly damage != death. Especially if you have a good medic or two around... its nasty, and you get much hurting and bad effects... but a good skilled mage with treat or a good biotech can (usually) save you.)

Indeed, a character in my game got hit by an AP mortar... then shot up. Amazingly, they managed to pull him out, get him to a surgeon, and save him. He did lose a point of quickness permanantly, and is now indebted to someone for a new liver, but hey.

Anyway... the point i -actually- replied to make, my opinions on the main topic.

I find enhanced articulation fine... never had any problems with mnemonic enhancers, anyway, but noone has used one yet.

On the other hand, i've got a house rule for stopping overuse of all the dice-adders... especially Chipjack Expert Drivers, which i did have a problem with. Basically, instead of botches when ALL dice roll ones... botches when you have more ones than you have skill or specialisation. (Not pool dice, complementary, etc)
Also, i nerfed CEDs by stating that they needed one less '1' to botch when in use. If anyone else does this sort of thing... make basic botches (Exactly the right number of ones) Much less fatal, and more humourous, on the whole, or people will die a lot more.