Superior Vehicles, Making new vehicles a bit more fun. Options

[The Jopp]

Superior vehicles are one of a kind and the price will reflect it. A souped up and perfectly tuned vehicle will cost more.

+5%: Popular. Gain a black market pipeline for this particular vehicle for upgrades and repairs.
+10%: Tuned. The vehicle has a +1 to an attribute or +20% acceleration or Speed.
+5-15%: Fame. Like the quality it has its pros and cons. Whenever the character uses this vehicle is recognized it can lead to interesting situations.
+5-10%: Erased. Like the quality all logged information about this vehicle is deleted. Very useful for smugglers (just don’t get it stolen)
+5-25%: Superior Design. The opposite of Gremlin. For each level of this quality the vehicle ignores dicerolls that would have created a glitch.
+10%: Greased Gears. Whenever someone drives the vehicle manually without being “Jumped in” they gain a +2D6 to Vehicle Initiative.
+5-30%: Fuel Efficient. Add +1 Hour operation time for each level of quality.
+5-20%: Slot Machine. Someone designed this vehicle to be very modular to upgrades. Add +1 to Modification slots per level of quality [THIS QUALITY COST DOUBLE FOR DRONES].
+25%: Modular. The design of this vehicle allows it to accept any kind of vehicle modification regardless of normal limitation (Yes, you will be stared at if your Americar have Landing Pontoons normally placed on helicopters but you CAN do it.)
+10%: Average. The vehicle looks incredibly bland for its type and seldom raise much attention. Function like the blandness quality.
+5%: Standard Equipment. One piece of vehicle modification comes as a standard upgrade and takes up no Modification Slots. The vehicle costs +5% AND the cost of the modification. The +5% represents the extra cost of squeezing it inside the original design.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Some of these are aviable as a modification, and some of the qualities are just better and cheaper. Note that with the "modular" modification, you can mount an LMG onto a micro-drone.

Also, please rename "Prototype" to "tuned Vehicle", as prototypes are normally not better than the market-ready vehicle.

[The Jopp]

Some of these are aviable as a modification, and some of the qualities are just better and cheaper. Note that with the "modular" modification, you can mount an LMG onto a micro-drone.

Well, there are always things that falls outside the rules.

You already have two small drones that has weapon mounts that has a body of 2. Ares Sentinel and the GMC Chariot. Neither drone SHOULD be able to mount a weapon mount as the rules say they need at least body of 3.

We also have the silliness of mounting a microdrone to a LMG as it would be like taping an RC helicopter to the roof of a car and expect the car to fly.

Some things the GM must simply say 'NO' to. Another way could be to limit weapon size to drone size.

Micro: One Shot Hold-Out
Mini: Hold Out
Small: Light pistol / Autopistol
Medium: Heavy Pistol / SMG
Heavy: Up to LMG

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Weapon Mounts: Vehicles may be equipped with a number of weapon mounts equal to their Body ÷ 3 (round down).

A BOD 2 drone can legally have a weapon mount. With Arsenal, weapon mounts are not allowed for mini- & microdrones.

[The Jopp]

A BOD 2 drone can legally have a weapon mount. With Arsenal, weapon mounts are not allowed for mini- & microdrones.

Goody, one problem cleared up.

Now we just need a clarification regarding Missile Launchers, Grenade launchers, Mortars and Exotic Weapons that can be fit to a drone. Are they all LMG or smaller? Or is the limitation that drones can only use "Firearms" - yes the question might be silly but when you get BOD2 drones with grenade launchers that you can get a dime a dozen and they are used as an army...

[Modular Man]

Just use the suggested rule for vehicle recoil compensation and skip those compensations which would be kind of crazy applied to a drone (Gyro, shock pad, foregrip and the like) And those little wigglers may get a problem per the normal rules.
The way I see it, some of the options you're presenting are just too cheap if applied to cheap vehicles. But the whole list is a very nice way to create variants of the given vehicles, though probably best used under GM supervision and with a little logic applied to it. It might get crazy if you apply too many of these.
Even a bland looking Eurocar Westwind will raise attention in most neighborhoods, whereas even a shiny Jackrabbit is very unlikely to get any attention at a upperclass nightclub. Those really depend on the situation... GM could add or take the usual 1-3 dice if necessary, though.
I like the list, though. Thank you.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Yeah, it is a very good list for GMs to make new vehicles.

[The Jopp]

The way I see it, some of the options you're presenting are just too cheap if applied to cheap vehicles.

Well, that's were mass production comes in. Most drones cost a fraction of their actual base equipment not to mention an actual chassi and propulsion system. But yes, many vehicles will be "cheap" by the standard of a customized vehicle but that's because it was an intended design and not a modification later on.

[bibliophile20]

Hmm... interesting ideas, but I think that the cost modifiers are way too low, both for realism and for game balance. *does some tweaks* I think that that's a bit more workable.

Superior vehicles are one of a kind and the price will reflect it. A souped up and perfectly tuned vehicle will cost more and be harder to find (either on the lot or someone willing to sell).

+20%, +3 Availability: This Year's Hot Model. Gain a black market pipeline for this particular vehicle for upgrades and repairs--however, increased chance that it might get stolen.
+20%, +2 Availability: Tuned. The vehicle has a +1 to an attribute or +20% acceleration or Speed.
+50%-200%+, +8 Availability, minimum: Fame. Like the quality it has its pros and cons. Whenever the character uses this vehicle is recognized it can lead to interesting situations.
+50%-100%, +4F/+8F Availability: Erased. Like the quality all logged information about this vehicle is deleted. Very useful for smugglers (just don't get it stolen)
+10%/25%/50%/100%: +4/+8/+12/+16 Availability; Superior Design. The opposite of Gremlin. For each level of this quality the vehicle ignores dicerolls that would have created a glitch.
+10%: Greased Gears, +4 Availability. Whenever someone drives the vehicle manually without being "Jumped in" they gain a +2 to Vehicle Initiative.
+10%/20%/30%/40%: +1 Availability per level; Fuel Efficient. Add +1 Hour operation time for each level of quality.
+10%/20%/40%/60%: +1 Availability per level; Slot Machine. Someone designed this vehicle to be very modular for upgrades. Add +1 to Modification slots per level of quality.
+5%; no Availability change: Average. The vehicle looks incredibly bland for its type and seldom raise much attention; a gray paint job is usually enough. Function like the blandness quality.
+20% + mod cost, +2 Availability + half Availability of mod OR Availability of mod, whichever is higher: Standard Equipment. One piece of vehicle modification comes as a standard upgrade and takes up no Modification Slots. The vehicle costs +20% AND the cost of the modification. The +20% represents the extra cost of squeezing it inside the original design.

My tweaks in Bold.

[The Jopp]

Hmm... interesting ideas, but I think that the cost modifiers are way too low, both for realism and for game balance. *does some tweaks* I think that that's a bit more workable.


My tweaks in Bold.

Those are just FAR to harsh.

The point with these qualities is that you should be able to pick and choose several, not to be financially crippled. I should have added that you could have a maximum of +50% cost just like you buy a Used Vehicle.

If the GM wants to add availability IN GAME then its ok but there should be no availability increase for characters who just wants to have a vehicle with a bit of history...and not +200% - unless you get KITT, or Airwolf or Hearth of Gold.

An example is he FAME. Adding +200% cost is a tad excessive as the quality could be very destructive for the character as well (EVERYONE knows that vehicle at that level). Who would ever choose said ability for the vehicle if you would have to pay +250 thousand extra for a Westwind. Sure, a famous microdrone for 1000Y extra is affordable but most regular vehicles will cripple a standard character with a maximum budget of 250K.

[bibliophile20]

Well, it's gonna be fairly obvious that I'm going to disagree, but I think the best way to handle this is for me to spell out my thought processes on the different points.

First off, as you point out, "Superior vehicles are one of a kind and the price will reflect it." And I have to agree on that point; a car that runs better than others of its model, either due to superior upkeep, chance or any one of a number of possibilities will be worth more--often alot more. Afterall, there are alot of ways for a vehicle to run less efficiently ("ways" being a catchall term for arrangement of parts, maintenance and other factors) but comparatively fewer ways for a vehicle to be more efficient than the manufactured baseline. Thus, such a vehicle will " cost more and be harder to find (either on the lot or someone willing to sell)."

Thus, onto the meat of this post. First:
This Year's Hot Model.
I renamed it from "Popular" to better reflect what I think you were going for, although "Chop Shop Bread And Butter" could also be a possibility, alot like how late 90's Honda Civics are endangered because they're worth more as spare parts than as vehicles. But the idea that there are plenty of spare parts out there that would allow the owner to "Gain a black market pipeline for this particular vehicle for upgrades and repairs" was what I thought that you were going for, and, since spare parts have to come from somewhere, I noted that there is an "increased chance that it might get stolen." And since it's "Popular" or an insurance nightmare (flip a coin) I gave it +20%, +3 Availability, to reflect those points, although I could see it being anywhere from a +5% to +20% instead of a flat +20%, depending on circumstances, which should be up to the GM.

Tuned.
Giving a vehicle significantly better performance (which a 20% boost to Speed or Acceleration is, most definitely) should cost more. Alot more. Keep in mind that IRL, street racers can spend tens of thousands or more to wring out that last bit of performance, and since this doesn't take up any modification slots, that makes it extra valuable, which makes the +20%, +2 Availability feel downright generous, to be honest, as it's basically a free (slot-wise) Engine Customization. And, for comparison's sake, 5% of a Hyundai Shin-Hyung is only 850 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , but getting an Engine Customization for that vehicle costs between 5000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and 8000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

Fame.
This one's a tough one, but, thinking about it, I'll go with that it's "Like the quality". Therefore, the vehicle is possibly recognized on sight; how this is different from Pimped Ride? Well, then, that means that the vehicle is famous in its own right, and therefore has possible collector's value--meaning that those people who want a piece of memorabilia are probably going to jack up the price significantly. +50%-200%+, +8 Availability, minimum.

Erased.
An unregistered--heck, an actively unregistered--vehicle in the age of ubiquitous surveillance should be worth its weight in gold. Like the unregistered firearm of yore and lore, it might be a crappy POS, but the fact that Big Brother doesn't know about it and it can't be traced to you makes it incredibly valuable for career criminals--and the fact that it's actively kept Erased by something means that it's all the more valuable. There's no way that this sort of vehicle can be worth less than double its normal price at the high end, which is why I went with +50%-100%, +4F/+8F Availability. Look at it this way; the availability modifiers in Core recommend a +50% price boost for "active law enforcement crackdown on item." This is just taking that into account.

Superior Design.
Heck, if I had a car that ran this smoothly, I'd be loath to part with it for anything less than a hefty surcharge! Alternatively, idiot-proofing is an expensive process and the corp has to make back its costs somehow. +10%/25%/50%/100%: +4/+8/+12/+16 Availability; The opposite of Gremlin. For each level of this quality the vehicle ignores dicerolls that would have created a glitch.

Greased Gears
As noted above, anything that gives a boost to speed or reaction time should be hard to get ahold of.

Fuel Efficient.
Take a look at modern electric or dual fuel cars. See how much of an "efficiency" surcharge people are willing to pay nowadays, and then tell me that +10%/20%/30%/40%: +1 Availability per level isn't fairly reasonable.

Slot Machine.
This one I'm not too sure about on my pricing, but at the same time, I'd rather err on the side of caution than allow for a potentially broken ability to get past me (and my usual litmus test for "broken" is "does my inner muchkin start jumping up and down, doing cartwheels and enumerating the things that I can do with it?" If "Yes" then "Broken"), hence the +10%/20%/40%/60%: +1 Availability per level

Average.
I'm not even sure why this one needs to be in here, but note that I actually reduced the cost of this "quality", due to the definition of "average": if it's able to blend in with the herd, then it doesn't stand out in any way--which should include price. +5%; no Availability change:

Standard Equipment.
This was outright broken, IMHO; getting a modification built in for only a 5% surcharge? So, free mod slots for a 5% surcharge? Yes, please, can I have another? Heck, I feel that even my tweak is still borderline broken; I'm tempted to change it to +10% per free slot + mod cost, +2 Availability + half Availability of mod OR Availability of mod, whichever is higher. Also, I know enough about engineering design to know that squeezing something else into the design is hard enough as it is; if this is a one-off, instead of a production line item, or a short production run, that means that the the cost of engineering it in has to be offset by a much higher price.

[Tanegar]

A BOD 2 drone can legally have a weapon mount. With Arsenal, weapon mounts are not allowed for mini- & microdrones.

Wait, what? That's a division sign, not an addition sign. 2/3 = 0.67, rounding down to 0. A BOD 2 drone cannot legally have a weapon mount.

[The Jopp]

ATT: Bibliophile

Ok, I had to chang my posting, I quoted to much =P

No problem, as I said, i found your rules to be TOO strict but I never said my ideas were perfect either.

This Year's Hot Model.
Hmm, this makes me wonder if the quality shouldnt be split into a positive and a negative one.
Popular: Plenty of spare parts/Market Flooded (5% discount on repairs and spare parts for that vehicle)
Wanted: Strangled Market (5% increased price on parts and repairs / More easily stolen than the Jackrabbit)

You pay a premium for the first quality for having a vehicle that has a good track record and the production company is churning out parts like candy. The second quality have a dip in the market making parts harder to come by but there are plenty of cars around making it cheaper, but more desired by thieves.

Tuned
I agree that this one IS a bit harder to defend but at the same time I cannot use customizations as a comparison as that is just that, a custom modification.

This is also a quality that might need a bit more change. How about that you use the "similar model" rule and is allowed to change TWO attributes instead of one. Normally you can say increase acceleration by +20% but must lower BOD instead, or loose two points of armor rating and increase top speed by 40% (see Arsenal page: 106).

This would give a tuned vehicle an andvantage in a specific field but gives it disadvantages instead. A 10% price modification for that isnt too steep.

Fame
Well, yea, and no. The problem is that unlike Fame we are talking about an object, not a character - and that as you say, makes it a bit more tricky.

For a starting character who might have BUILT the vehicle or CREATED the history I would say that the Availability kinda kills the quality. Would Han solo even own the Millenium Falcon with a +8 Availability and pricetag of +200% if he had to BUY it in Mos Eisley.

In Han Solos case the vehicle in question (to give an example) his vessel would already be dumped by about 60%
-20%: Used:
-10%: Vehicle used in a crime under investigation
-5%: Last Years model (see my other thread)
-XX%: Yea, A large Gremlins quality of a malfunctioning vehicle.
etc...

So yea, paying 100% extra on the pricetag is not unfeasible but I'd waive the availability unless you try to get Dunkelzhans limo in the game (if yuo started with it on the other hand...)

Erased
Hmm, yea, I agree - the drawback on the other hand is that unlike a character with erased the vehicle can get stolen but at the same time a character can get incarcerated ad infinitum as they are erased...

Superior Design.
You do realize that a starting character cannot even start the game with a vehicle with a maxed out Superior Design quality as they need an ADDITIONAL quality just to get a hold of it - and that is for vehicles with NO availability.

[+3/+6/+9/+12] would be more efficient as you would need a an extra quality to get more exotic vehicles but you can still buy things at twice starting price with zero availability.

Greased Gears
Ok, so we add a +8 Availability to the vehicle.

Fuel Efficient.
Well, I stand corrected. I wanted something between the "Additional Fueltank" and the "Improved Economy" and that's not unreasonable as the Improved Economy can essentially go towards ridiulous levels on some vehicles (i think about +450% on one vessel I calculated on) and at the same time the Additional Fueltank at 1000Y is a bit silly.

Slot Machine.
Hmm, I still think it will be a bit too expensive, especially when we get to bigger vehicles with already large pricetags. What about giving a discount based on body rating - this would represent that having more mass/body gives you more possible space to muck around with. Besides, when you pay 800 000Y for a zeppeline and an additional 400 000Y for 4 extra modification slots you might want a 36% price reduction at that level of investment and limited return.

I would also not allow the Slot Machine variant on any vehicle that already has 4 extra modification slots.

Standard Equipment
You have a good point but at the same time, if someone wants a model of a vehicle with a amenities squeezed in (Self sustained Horseman with Amenities built in) then id want a reasonable cost for something that might be rather mainstream.

I can definitely see the problem when someone tries to add rocket boosters and gun turrets as that would most likely not be something mass produced, but this should represent something that IS mass produced but might be SLIGHTLY more exotic than your average vehicle of the same type.

How about this:
Availability: +Modification Availability
Cost: Modification+10% per normally used slot
Forbidden or Restricted items not allowed
Max one per vehicle

[bibliophile20]

... *yawn* Sorry, late night; major drama in a Changeling: The Lost game; it's a bad sign when your PC can get a Not So Different lecture from the crazy, MPD psychopathic PC and realize that he's right.

Anyway...

As for the rules strictness thing, like I said, I tend to err on the side of conservatism when it comes to this sort of thing. If nothing else, it gives the GM a little more leeway. "Congrats, you've found a highly modular and customizable drone at a 10% discount!" is more likely to go over well than "Hey, yeah, the chop shop guys want an additional 20%..."

Onto the main points:

As for Popular and derivations, this should really be up to the GM as situational modifiers; tastes change, production lines end, and then it's onto next year's hot model.

Tuned.
I dunno. Speed is a big deal for vehicles, and giving a vehicle that big a boost, even with a reduction, doesn't sit well with me for a mere 5% of its value.

Famed
Much like "popular" I think that this one should be the domain of the GM's discretion, just because it's so hard to agree on what a "famous" vehicle is; is it a "popular" model that shows up in extremely conspicuous product placement on the Trid? Or is it a one-of-a-kind vehicle with some history, even if that history is only going to be known to it's fans? At this point, it's not a production line vehicle anymore; if production line vehicles are like Grunts, then this sort of thing is a Prime Runner; it has its own stats and history, and trying to offer any sort of guidelines for designing it is probably going to hinder a GM more than help.

Erased.
Very true that there's a downside, but even that can be turned to a PC's advantage; as was pointed out in the "Impound Lot" thread, these are not high security locations; waiting until the lot's "forgotten" about it and then hacking in and putting in false paperwork indicating that it's to be released to a Mr. HiI'mAFakeSin or even just bribing the guard all work for getting your ride back.

Superior Design.
Outside of (ostensibly) rare and esoteric magical and technomantic powers (i.e. Guard and Diagnostics), there's no way for a character to reduce the effects of a Glitch beyond spending Edge--and Pilot programs don't have Edge to spend. Add in the effects of the typical low dice pools for autonomous drones, and anything that reduces the chance of your drones glitching should be highly sought after and thus rare to find on the open market.

Slot Machine.
Your example of the Zeppelin is an interesting one; as a Lighter Than Air vehicle, every gram of mass brought or added aboard is something that has to be grudgingly accepted and balanced against the lifting power of the gas envelope. Additional mod slots in that situation would probably represent (additional) shrinking existing components to free up mass and volume--and even in Shadowrun, that kind of miniaturization is going to be expensive, given that the starting point is already going to be at a high level of miniaturization anyway for those exact reasons!

Standard Equipment.
The problem is that the system breaks down as soon as you move away from those basic cases; a boost to Amenities? Yes, that's not really an issue. However, that's not what people would use it for; they'd use it for like "Yeah, my vehicle totally came with Signature Masking 6/Concealed Armor 10/Large Drone Rack/Rocket Boosters as a standard feature"! So, yeah, your suggested mod at the bottom works much better; it's not perfect, but it'll do.

And, yeah, Jopp? Nice working with you on this.

[Udoshi]

Those are just FAR to harsh.

I'd treat it just like a cyberlimb upgrade(customized/bulk mod/cosmetic detailing.....)

+1 avail/and +5%/10% cost per addition. Internally balance all options so they aren't really OP.

eeexxcept standard equipment. that needs to be based on the equipment going in.