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> Resonance Trodes VS Astral, Who wins?
almost normal
post Mar 6 2012, 05:48 AM
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QUOTE
Resonance Trodes
Prerequisite: Skinlink
The technomancer gains the ability to use his touch as trodes
for another person to provide simsense signals or even share his perception
of the Matrix. If used against the receiverís will (for instance,
to drag a personís mind into hot VR and nuke it with Black IC),
it requires a touch-based unarmed attack to apply the trodes, and
maintaining the grip may require a successful subduing attack (p.
152, SR4). If resisted, the technomancer must also beat their victim
in an Opposed Test, pitting Resonance + Willpower against the targetís
Intuition + Willpower. If successful, the technomancerís touch
act as trodes until he stops or physical contact is broken.


If a TM using this power hits a mage who's currently astrally projecting, what happens?

The valid options seem to be (And by all means, add others if they dont fit)

1. Nothing. The power doesn't work because the mind isn't there.
2. The Mage is snapped back into reality and fights against the TM in the Matrix
3. The TM has free reign to nuke the defenseless mage.
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phlapjack77
post Mar 6 2012, 06:15 AM
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Interesting idea. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'd vote for option 3, sort of like if a shedim finds the body of a currently astral mage. There is no mind (defenses) there, so the TM is free to do whatever damage they like. Tabula rasa.
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pbangarth
post Mar 6 2012, 06:17 AM
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I'd go for number 3 as well.


Or, she could just shoot the defenseless mage. Of course, that would be less personal fun.
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almost normal
post Mar 6 2012, 02:52 PM
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QUOTE (pbangarth @ Mar 6 2012, 01:17 AM) *
I'd go for number 3 as well.


Or, she could just shoot the defenseless mage. Of course, that would be less personal fun.


Well, if #3 is what would happen, then yeah, shooting the mage, or plonking the mage's head with a nearby object would do, but if it forces the mage to snap back out of astral, that's got loads of interesting consequences attached.
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Yerameyahu
post Mar 6 2012, 03:33 PM
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I still say that no one knows how Resonance Trodes works (/what it does). What does 'drag their mind into VR' even mean? Are they inside the TM's node (i.e., a separate persona running on it, like a nexus)? If so, how is that possible, what stats do they have, etc.?
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Draco18s
post Mar 6 2012, 05:18 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 6 2012, 10:33 AM) *
I still say that no one knows how Resonance Trodes works (/what it does). What does 'drag their mind into VR' even mean? Are they inside the TM's node (i.e., a separate persona running on it, like a nexus)? If so, how is that possible, what stats do they have, etc.?


I think it's the Resonance version of Shade ("force the taker to astrally project").
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ShadowWalker
post Mar 6 2012, 05:30 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 6 2012, 10:33 AM) *
I still say that no one knows how Resonance Trodes works (/what it does). What does 'drag their mind into VR' even mean? Are they inside the TM's node (i.e., a separate persona running on it, like a nexus)? If so, how is that possible, what stats do they have, etc.?


The way I would work this is that the Resonance Trodes is giving the Person temporary access to Resonance and that their Stats should be built as one would a Living Persona.
With a limit on the Stats equal to the Resonance of the Technomancer using Resonance Trodes. They would also be within that persons Bionode and not the Bionode of the Technomancer.
So Response = Intuition +1, Firewall = Willpower, System = Logic, Signal = non-existant (has to use the Technomancers Signal), Biofeedback Filter = Charisma, Initiative = Intuition x2 +1, 3 passes.

Another way to look at it is to think of how regular trodes work. They are connected to a commlink. That commlink has stats, the persona gets it's stats from that commlink.
Resonance Trodes are also linked to something that acts like a commlink. That being the Bionode. The Bionode has stats, via the stats of the Living Persona.
So a person brought into VR via Resonance Trodes should have stats based on the Bionode and Living Persona.

Since the person also has a Resonance of Zero one could also argue that their Stats should be Zero.
Which would mean nuking would be just straight damage, no resistance.
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almost normal
post Mar 6 2012, 05:48 PM
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So you'd put that under #3? Or a subset of 3 where the mage snaps back to the body, defenseless?
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Yerameyahu
post Mar 6 2012, 05:52 PM
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Yeah, it is kind of tricky. Your second suggestion is what I meant by 'nexus' (mundane uses the bionode as a 'shared' commlink). The problem there is the canonicity of 'sharing' Resonance, and their access to 'programs' and things. The 'temporary techno' method is a distinct concept, and yeah, Resonance 0 is kind of an issue. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

For me, I feel like this is basically an attack skill; it's be much simpler to just give it a damage effect.

It does have non-attack uses, as well; for those, it might again be easier to just say 'the techno sends a simsense feed' and/or 'the techno emulates a commlink'.

The sticky bit is the whole 'drags into VR' part. The actual *effects* are pretty okayÖ except for the OP question. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Mar 6 2012, 06:09 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 6 2012, 08:33 AM) *
I still say that no one knows how Resonance Trodes works (/what it does). What does 'drag their mind into VR' even mean? Are they inside the TM's node (i.e., a separate persona running on it, like a nexus)? If so, how is that possible, what stats do they have, etc.?


Well, if they are a non-TM, they have no stats in VR; That is what a comlink is for, after all. At least they can apply their Willpower to soak that Blackhammer Damage. Sucks to be them... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Yerameyahu
post Mar 6 2012, 06:15 PM
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Yes. If that's the case, though, it'd be so much simpler to just say, 'Resonance Trodes allows to you apply black effects directly.'

This is compatible with the first part of the rules: "provide simsense signals or even share his perception of the Matrix". (In this case, provide *dangerous* simsense.)

So, that's my conclusion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Ignore the 'drag into VR' bit entirely, and say that RTrodes does exactly this: send (but not receive!) simsense (chosen by the user, inc. black effects, BTL, or just 'screen sharing') to a willing/unwilling subject.

Incidentally, this solves the OP question, because we know how trodes function on projecting mages, right?
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ShadowWalker
post Mar 6 2012, 06:19 PM
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I think that if the mage's mind is not there then what is there to bring into the VR environment?
If your view is that Resonance Trodes allows the Technomancer access to the persons Bionode equivalent, then they end up in an empty room with no persona there to attack.
The only thing they could do is crash the node, and make the mage end up dealing with what is listed in Unwired.

QUOTE
Crashing the biological node is a painful and unpleasant experience as it forcefully severs all links to the Matrix and forces the technomancer to reboot (p. 221, SR4). In addition, the technomancer suffers a –2 dice pool modifier from disorientation and vertigo until he has fully rebooted.

That to me says the mage ends up back in hisor her body once the node is rebooted.

As an attack you do the touch attack. If they succeed in touching, then do the forced connection attack they have listed. If the connection is forced then do either a Black Hammer, Blackout attack with the resistance being zero. Standard Attack program should probably do something to. I wouldn't have a problem in this being unresisted, just look at the number of rolls needed to make this work.

Doing just a touch attack means that contact is broken as soon as the attack is over. If you want it to last then you would need a standard unarmed attack, or better grapple/subdual attack.
Atlhough I would think both bodies would go limp into VR. Having Mesh Reality would make keeping contact easier.
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Irion
post Mar 6 2012, 06:20 PM
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I would go with option one.
The description is your really seperate your soul from your body.
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NiL_FisK_Urd
post Mar 6 2012, 06:30 PM
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sure, the soul is in the astral - but black hammer kills neurons, and these are still in your head. It would be easier to just shoot the mage though.
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almost normal
post Mar 6 2012, 06:33 PM
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ShadowWalker brings up the other point.

You could go total inception on the mage, presumably. Edit up a VR environment that perfectly matches their room and all that. From there, the possibilities are endless.
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ShadowWalker
post Mar 6 2012, 06:38 PM
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QUOTE (almost normal @ Mar 6 2012, 01:33 PM) *
ShadowWalker brings up the other point.

You could go total inception on the mage, presumably. Edit up a VR environment that perfectly matches their room and all that. From there, the possibilities are endless.


Using Edit and Reality Filter on a person's Bionode is just nasty!
Although VR still looks virtual and not real.
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snowRaven
post Mar 6 2012, 06:40 PM
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I'd say it would have the same effect as applying a set of trodes linked to a commlink, only the technomancer is in charge and the subject is just hitching along. It would be using the technomancers brain as a commlink you can't control, basically?
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almost normal
post Mar 6 2012, 08:21 PM
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QUOTE (ShadowWalker @ Mar 6 2012, 01:38 PM) *
Although VR still looks virtual and not real.


You sure on that buddy?
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Yerameyahu
post Mar 6 2012, 08:28 PM
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The problem with ShadowWalker's characterization is that I don't think we have any grounds for assuming a bionode on the part of the *subject*. At most, the techno is pulling the subject into the techno's bionode. So, there's no concept of the subject's 'empty bionode' or 'crashing the subject's bionode' at all.

I'm also not sure there's any game/world reality of 'their mind isn't present' or the correlation between the astral and matrix rules here. Like I said, I thought it was a known situation for trodes on a mage: while projecting, the mage gets zero input from their 'meat' senses. This includes 'natural' senses (sight, hearing, etc., *and* injury) and simsense (whatever form). So, if injury effects affect the projection, then neural damage would tooÖ but the mage wouldn't *feel* it (or see, or hear, or simsense).
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Irion
post Mar 6 2012, 08:45 PM
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@NiL_FisK_Urd
A bullet in the head also kills neurons. Does not force you back from the astral plane. You won't have a body to go back to thought.
But the technomancer will have a very pissed off mage on his ass...
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Draco18s
post Mar 6 2012, 08:57 PM
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QUOTE (Irion @ Mar 6 2012, 03:45 PM) *
But the technomancer will have a very pissed off mage on his ass...


And the techno will be 100% immune to anything the mage does.
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almost normal
post Mar 6 2012, 09:09 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 6 2012, 03:57 PM) *
And the techno will be 100% immune to anything the mage does.


Except the OP spirits the mage can summon.

If I were that TM, I'd take the first flight to space and wait that bitch out.
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snowRaven
post Mar 6 2012, 09:17 PM
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QUOTE (almost normal @ Mar 6 2012, 10:09 PM) *
Except the OP spirits the mage can summon.

If I were that TM, I'd take the first flight to space and wait that bitch out.


Yup yup.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Mar 6 2012, 09:22 PM
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QUOTE (almost normal @ Mar 6 2012, 02:09 PM) *
Except the OP spirits the mage can summon.

If I were that TM, I'd take the first flight to space and wait that bitch out.


Why? Why would the projecting mage even have any idea who just screwed him over into death?
His body just.... Dies...
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snowRaven
post Mar 6 2012, 09:24 PM
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Psychometry. Spirits. pre-run Divining. Witnesses. Cpovering himself in astrally luminescent invisible paint before going out.

Take your pick (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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