Maximum Attribute Ratings, What's the Limit? Options

[snowRaven]

Any campaign that would allow that build is probably going to one of those campaigns where the hacker has Deus running his commlink, where Harlequin is making balloon animals at the mage's kid's birthday party, and where the biggest problem with great dragons is housebreaking them.

That second one doesn't sound so far-fetched, really... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Ragewind]

...and assuming the dragon doesn't have Detect Enemies, Armor spell, etc, etc...

Plus, remember that a GD has much higher body and armor, Twist Fgate ability, and Edge of their own...

Well lets take a look... (assuming max numbers, only the armor will be overcast)
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Basic Western Dragon would have a max 12 Magic score has has a skillgroup of 8 (also "just about" all known spells, meaning he could be missing a important spell). Meaning if he cast a Armor spell with a Overcast (we will even throw in edge) he will get typically +36 Armor, he already has 8 Armor (that is hardened but doesn't matter since we are striking with electricity)

Meaning he would have 44 Armor Rating, he also has 14 boxes of health.

He only has a 6 Perception and a 8 in wisdom to give him a total of 14 Dice to spot (not including misc modifiers like day/night etc.) Meaning He cannot see the pixie coming (-19), and infact only rolls his edge if he decided too meaning 6 dice, assuming max numbers will net him 7 hits. With Max Infiltration Rolls the Pixie is effectively invisible to him. Now with Detect Enemies, with his stats, will net him a 16 meter bubble that allows him to detect a hostile intent. Keep in mind the spell only allows him to know something is there, since he cannot see the target he does not get to Dodge/REA out of the attack.

Now the Pixie moves faster than 16 meters a turn, and can run/charge even further (or more with a Running/Flying test), meaning that the dragon cannot even react to a hostile presence before he is struck. Now to hit such a big target the pixie will be rolling +30 on the hit roll (with edge so a total of 35, 46 with Setup), meaning he just smacked the Dragon for 59 Elec Damage. The 44 Armor drops to 22, allowing him to stop 35 damage with his body added in for a total of 24 Stun, which will just about kill the dragon with Overflow, edge can also reduce the Stun overflow but not enough to prevent the dragon from going down.
Even if the damage is thrown off slightly the dragon will still be unconscious and a finisher next turn will end it.

Now for a Great Dragon

He is obviously tougher with higher magic blah blah blah

Problem is he still can't see the pixie his perception + edge is the same as a basic dragon. Meaning He cannot dodge the attack AND he cannot use Twist Fate since he needs to see his target.
In addition he is only a better spellcaster by 2 dice, meaning his spell range and durability will be basically the same.
Due to the extra 5 boxes of health he gets for being a Great Dragon, its entirely possible for him to be alive after the first hit(not the second one), so you use the Setup Skill and add another 11 Damage to the strike, taking him down.

The dragon also is not fast enough to outrun/fly the pixie so its simply a matter of time before its over. You can also go beyond the 6 hits for the energy aura spell for a few extra points of damage from the pixie.

So going strictly by the numbers its fairly easy to get done

EDIT: You can cast a spell that helps the Dragon see, up to potentially a +26 to spot, -19 gives him 7 dices + edge for a total of +15. The infiltration roll of the pixie is still going to be around +17 (more with modifiers and edge) meaning even with a good buff they still wont be able to see him. Its also within reason o tweak the pixie build a bit to give him a good shadow/chameleon spell to increase the -19 even further)
EDIT 2: I suppose the dragon could also make himself harder to see, as the original pixie build doesn't incorporate much to spot stuff, there are a number of ways around it so with the right changes he could also get a great spot. However for the best numbers the pixie would have to have a Team. Which I would hope so since the pixie is just a 400 BP character fighting Dragons.

[snowRaven]

Are you taking into consideration that dragons are dual natured?

Also - enhanced smell...

[ShadowDragon8685]

From Running Wild on the subject of Pixie gear:

> I hear NeoNET has also made customized armor for their pixie employees and that SK has a line of armor designed for centaurs. But no one has yet figured out how to make usable armor for naga that doesn’t impede their movement … Ditto with guns for pixies; the little buggers are too small to use conventional firearms, and miniaturized guns don’t pack enough of a punch to do much damage.
> Clockwork

We can do better than that!

We shall do better than that.

To a pixie, a round of heavy pistol sized EX-EX or Overpressure Ammunition looks a lot like most people see a rocket-propelled grenade.

Or just make the Pixie a Rigger and build her an anthroform drone, Men in Black style.

[Tashiro]

If I'm dealing with dragons, I'm going to presume they took +Bod quickens as well, and a few other attribute quickens to boot.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Well lets take a look... (assuming max numbers, only the armor will be overcast)
Page 304 BBB

Basic Western Dragon would have a max 12 Magic score has has a skillgroup of 8 (also "just about" all known spells, meaning he could be missing a important spell). Meaning if he cast a Armor spell with a Overcast (we will even throw in edge) he will get typically +36 Armor, he already has 8 Armor (that is hardened but doesn't matter since we are striking with electricity)

Meaning he would have 44 Armor Rating, he also has 14 boxes of health.

He only has a 6 Perception and a 8 in wisdom to give him a total of 14 Dice to spot (not including misc modifiers like day/night etc.) Meaning He cannot see the pixie coming (-19), and infact only rolls his edge if he decided too meaning 6 dice, assuming max numbers will net him 7 hits. With Max Infiltration Rolls the Pixie is effectively invisible to him. Now with Detect Enemies, with his stats, will net him a 16 meter bubble that allows him to detect a hostile intent. Keep in mind the spell only allows him to know something is there, since he cannot see the target he does not get to Dodge/REA out of the attack.

Now the Pixie moves faster than 16 meters a turn, and can run/charge even further (or more with a Running/Flying test), meaning that the dragon cannot even react to a hostile presence before he is struck. Now to hit such a big target the pixie will be rolling +30 on the hit roll (with edge so a total of 35, 46 with Setup), meaning he just smacked the Dragon for 59 Elec Damage. The 44 Armor drops to 22, allowing him to stop 35 damage with his body added in for a total of 24 Stun, which will just about kill the dragon with Overflow, edge can also reduce the Stun overflow but not enough to prevent the dragon from going down.
Even if the damage is thrown off slightly the dragon will still be unconscious and a finisher next turn will end it.

Now for a Great Dragon

He is obviously tougher with higher magic blah blah blah

Problem is he still can't see the pixie his perception + edge is the same as a basic dragon. Meaning He cannot dodge the attack AND he cannot use Twist Fate since he needs to see his target.
In addition he is only a better spellcaster by 2 dice, meaning his spell range and durability will be basically the same.
Due to the extra 5 boxes of health he gets for being a Great Dragon, its entirely possible for him to be alive after the first hit(not the second one), so you use the Setup Skill and add another 11 Damage to the strike, taking him down.

The dragon also is not fast enough to outrun/fly the pixie so its simply a matter of time before its over. You can also go beyond the 6 hits for the energy aura spell for a few extra points of damage from the pixie.

So going strictly by the numbers its fairly easy to get done

EDIT: You can cast a spell that helps the Dragon see, up to potentially a +26 to spot, -19 gives him 7 dices + edge for a total of +15. The infiltration roll of the pixie is still going to be around +17 (more with modifiers and edge) meaning even with a good buff they still wont be able to see him. Its also within reason o tweak the pixie build a bit to give him a good shadow/chameleon spell to increase the -19 even further)
EDIT 2: I suppose the dragon could also make himself harder to see, as the original pixie build doesn't incorporate much to spot stuff, there are a number of ways around it so with the right changes he could also get a great spot. However for the best numbers the pixie would have to have a Team. Which I would hope so since the pixie is just a 400 BP character fighting Dragons.

Street Legends has stats for Lofwyr and Hestaby ... with magic in the 25+ range -> quickened Armor F50 spell with 50 hits, Combat Sense F50 with 50 hits, Detect Enemies (Extended) F50 with 50 Hits

[Tanegar]

We can do better than that!

We shall do better than that.

To a pixie, a round of heavy pistol sized EX-EX or Overpressure Ammunition looks a lot like most people see a rocket-propelled grenade.

Or just make the Pixie a Rigger and build her an anthroform drone, Men in Black style.

I was just thinking the other day about what a human-scale firearm would look like to a pixie, inspired mainly by this thread. The conclusion I reached is that a Predator IV is basically a magazine-fed pixie-scale assault cannon. Put a tiny shoulder rest on it, add electronic firing, and Bob's yer uncle.

[ShadowDragon8685]

I was just thinking the other day about what a human-scale firearm would look like to a pixie, inspired mainly by this thread. The conclusion I reached is that a Predator IV is basically a magazine-fed pixie-scale assault cannon. Put a tiny shoulder rest on it, add electronic firing, and Bob's yer uncle.

Well, checking the Pixie's entry again, it looks like they're not tinkerbell-sized at all. They have a wingspan of one meter and they stand 45 cm tall - that's 17.7 inches. That's tiny, but that's not TOO tiny.

So yeah. You certainly could do that. Might want to change it from a magazine to a box or a belt feed, rework it to be less vertical and more horizontal.



As an aside, there's a comatose pixie named 'Little Grace' in Runner's Companion on page 65. They say she has a datajack and was jacked into the Matrix during the Crash 2.0.

That would've been SR3 technology, so I have to like... Wonder... Did she have an adapter or something, or is her datajack half her back? I mean, a standard plug would be huge compared to her head! Probably larger than it.

[Tanegar]

Now I have an image of a pixie with an actual assault cannon attached to a smart firing platform, and a tiny seat attached to the side of the cannon. She's basically using it as an artillery piece.

Now I really, really want to make a pixie heavy weapons specialist.

[Ragewind]

How old is Street Legends? Without stats they are un-killable, if we have something to work off of we can do something.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Now I have an image of a pixie with an actual assault cannon attached to a smart firing platform, and a tiny seat attached to the side of the cannon. She's basically using it as an artillery piece.

Now I really, really want to make a pixie heavy weapons specialist.

Hell, pick up a Wuxing Crimson Samurai to attach the thing to and you've got yourself a Pixie tank! Get your hands on a Mitsuhama Tomino Ares Madcat*, and you've got a Pixie Battlemech, capable of mounting two heavy weapons, four light weapons, or a heavy and two light weapons.




*I just saw what they did there.

[snowRaven]

How old is Street Legends? Without stats they are un-killable, if we have something to work off of we can do something.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

It's recent.

[Ragewind]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

It's recent.

I think the last book I saw was WAR!, ill have to take a look at it. Although keep in mind if you want to throw "Epic" characters at 400bp Starting characters thats a bit sadistic (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Stahlseele]

And things like these character designs are, like, the ONLY prt of SR4 i find half way interesting enough to want to try it . . everything else makes me just go:"yuck" . . shame these things were not possible under SR3 Rules ._.

[snowRaven]

I think the last book I saw was WAR!, ill have to take a look at it. Although keep in mind if you want to throw "Epic" characters at 400bp Starting characters thats a bit sadistic (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

...especially given the suggestion of using 'cinematic' rules for hits for the NPCs in Street Legends (hits on 4,5,6).

[ShadowDragon8685]

...especially given the suggestion of using 'cinematic' rules for hits for the NPCs in Street Legends (hits on 4,5,6).

Wow. That's asinine. Not even Great Dragons get to do that.....

Crap, I shouldn't have said that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)


I mean, I don't mind the idea of using the 'cinematic' rules, but I don't like the idea of stacking the deck against the PCs that ridiculously. They are, after all, the focal point of the story. If big bads (or, depending on your point of view and the alliances you've made, big goods,) get to hit on TN 4, so do the PCs.


Of course, if players are hitting on a TN of 4, that means you should feel free to throw more riff-raff at them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Are you taking into consideration that dragons are dual natured?

Also - enhanced smell...

And lets not forget that the Dragon probably has an Extended Range Detect Enemies, so MUCH further than 16 Meter Bubble that has been posited.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

How old is Street Legends? Without stats they are un-killable, if we have something to work off of we can do something.

A Month or two Old, or so...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Wow. That's asinine. Not even Great Dragons get to do that.....

Well, Lofwyr and Hestaby are both in the book that discusses the rule, and are assumed to have the advantage. I see no problem with that. If you REALLY think you are capable of going toe-to-toe with either of these Great Dragons, well, you deserve to get eaten, with a dab of ketchup. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[ShadowDragon8685]

Well, Lofwyr and Hestaby are both in the book that discusses the rule, and are assumed to have the advantage. I see no problem with that. If you REALLY think you are capable of going toe-to-toe with either of these Great Dragons, well, you deserve to get eaten, with a dab of ketchup. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

They already have insane stats, ridiculous dice pools, stratospheric Magic and Initiation values, and the unique and absolute bullshit ability to negate Edge use. They don't really need (or deserve) to roll against a target number of four, too.

[Yerameyahu]

*shrug* Why not, though? They're supposed to be literally infinitely powerful. Twist Fate is fair… for great dragons.

[Glyph]

The fact that they are "supposed" to be so powerful is the whole problem. They simply don't fit within the same power scale as the rest of the game universe.

[Yerameyahu]

I wouldn't give them stats in the first place, no. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[ShadowDragon8685]

The fact that they are "supposed" to be so powerful is the whole problem. They simply don't fit within the same power scale as the rest of the game universe.

I agree. The way I see a Great Dragon, on a scale of power, is that they should fall somewhere far short of a Celestial Exalt (from Exalted.) Perhaps in the range of a weak 3rd circle demon from a relatively weak Primordial.

Big? Yes. Bad? Oh yes. Virtually a superpower unto themselves? Not really, but they have so much concentrated power in one package that they should be dealt with carefully and courted/diplomatized with as if they were.


Should one survive declaring a one-Dragon-crusade against a heavily-industrial AAA Megacorp with standing armies and a vast military-industrial-magical complex?

Not a chance in hell. The moment he shows his face, someone should be screaming into a commlink "It's Sirrurg!" (or whomever is the target du jour,) at which point the Thor Shots start falling on his ass, orbital lasers blast him, a squadron of 50+ Force 12+ Spirits and their magician handlers should be mobilized into an astral assault while aerospace assets are scrambled, etcetera etcetera. Nukes aren't even out of the question, though of course they're always a crapshoot as to whether or not they'll initiate properly.


Frankly, the way I see it, Dragons aren't the dominant species on Earth anymore, and they need to get used to that fact. If it does come down to a knock-down, drag-out, us-or-them battle for survival, trial-of-annihilation style war between Dragons and Metahumanity, Metahumanity will win, for certain values of the term 'victory,' if for no other reason than dragons need Earth to survive and metahumanity (in the strictest, survival-of-the-species sense,) doesn't. The absolute worst-case scenario, corps and nations being unable to withstand the spiritual onslaught the dragons will summon up and bind, Earth can be glassed from orbit and beyond, and the dragons who survive the onslaught will be left to deal with the crippling background count, toxic everything, and general lack of anything whatsoever left in the wake of such a battle, while metahumanity gets to work implementing massive artificial reproduction techniques and colonizing Mars and the moon far more thoroughly.


Of course, this is probably a little irrelevant to the question of whether or not your runners can survive crossing a Great Dragon. My notion is that it's possible, but it's pretty much a campaign-ender, or at least group-characters-retirer, whether you survive or not, because you're either going to have to sell your soul to someone powerful enough to assure your protection (another Great Dragon,) kill the Great Dragon in question (and survive the fact that other dragons, even ones that hated him, will be out for your guts,) or remove yourself from his reach, such as (at a bare minimum) Zurich Orbital, or preferably Mars (or, if you're feeling frisky and your group is largely MagicRun, take an astral rift to some nifty Metaplane where all forms of tracking, magical and mundane, fail utterly, and never come back.)

[Yerameyahu]

*shrug* If you think that, then your problem is hardly that they roll hits on 4s. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)