Supressive Fire..., ...using Grenade Launchers? Options

[ShadowDragon8685]

Shortstraw: Suppressive Pantheon fire suppresses an entire district of the sprawl. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[snowRaven]

I would make it simple.

- How many grenades are there in a full auto barrage? I would say about 20'
- Add +1 to the base area effect of a grenade per shot fired.
- The total area is the area suppressed, calculate scatter from impact point as normal for the entire explosion radius ONCE.
- That is your supression area, if you want less scatter, start over and shoot again.

But for gods sake, dont mix grenades (Smoke, Incendiary, Frag) Enemy cannot see, they are on fire, and they explode...)

And yea, property value will be somewhat dimished. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

I kinda like that suggestion...

Found a relevant section of War!:

Other weapons capable of creating suppressive fire zones, such as cluster munitions (p. 158), [Element] Cloud (p. 178), or the Storm power (p. 102, Street Magic or p. 215, Running Wild), can create zones of a different shape, usually spherical.  ese are all suppressive  re zones, even if the harmful element in the zone is not normally considered “ re” (as in the case of a Water Cloud spell, for example).
Regardless of the source, all suppressive  re zones behave the same way, using the rules on p. 154, SR4A and those found in this section.

Cluster: These mortar shells are  filled with sub-munitions that spread and detonate randomly after impact. This creates a suppressive fire zone (p. 154, SR4A) with a Reaction + Edge threshold of 4.  This zone lasts until the same Initiative Pass of the Combat Turn following the one in which the cluster mortar exploded.

So, using an SA grenade launcher to suppress would use up 5 grenades; an FA one 20.

Having 5 grenades cover 15m radius may work. I like that.
Using the same suggestion, a FA suppressive zone would cover a 30 meter radius. Yeah.

I think I'll stick to half base damage for SA suppression, to make things a bit less deadly. Use full damage for a critical glitch, indicating a direct hit.
A 20 'nade suppression-fest would be full damage though.

It works, and I fear my explosives-nut player will now start using his GL equipped rotodrone for supression... *sigh* The city will never be the same after he pulls that stunt (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[ShadowDragon8685]

It works, and I fear my explosives-nut player will now start using his GL equipped rotodrone for supression... *sigh* The city will never be the same after he pulls that stunt (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

I expect that in the future, glass will become a lot less popular as a building material compared to, say, reinforced concrete with spall liner. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Still though, once you start pulling out the math, I say bleh. That's why I just say go with a narrative description of where you're suppressing and let the GM veto it if you're asking to do something ridiculous, like suppress an entire facing of the ACHE with a machine pistol.

[Ragewind]

Normally with "SF" you would follow the rules as written, i.e.> make the test or be suppressed. using grenades does not change this rule, but since the ammunition has changed you also have to follow that rule.
If you are shooting out 20 grenades you would resolve each grenade separately, note that this does not affect the Suppression test at all.

Neither the Grenade rules nor the Supression rules override each other allowing both to be used simultaneously. Sadly the "AOE" effect of the suppression is not increased by using grenades, there is simply nothing that allows for you to get a bigger area.

[snowRaven]

Normally with "SF" you would follow the rules as written, i.e.> make the test or be suppressed. using grenades does not change this rule, but since the ammunition has changed you also have to follow that rule.
If you are shooting out 20 grenades you would resolve each grenade separately, note that this does not affect the Suppression test at all.

Neither the Grenade rules nor the Supression rules override each other allowing both to be used simultaneously. Sadly the "AOE" effect of the suppression is not increased by using grenades, there is simply nothing that allows for you to get a bigger area.

See my quote from War! above about different weapons creating differently shaped suppression areas (A Cluster bomb creates a supression area of 15m radius, for instance).

The question isn't how to handle if ppl are suppressed or not, really - the question is what damage do they take if they fail their test (standard is 'base damage' for normal suppression and 'half base damage' for SA suppression).

Why would you resolve each grenade separately when you don't resolve each bullet separately in normal suppression, and how on earth would you determine where the grenades hit, and scatter, if you supress a cone? If you suppress using grenades set to contact detonation, then it can be treated just as standard suppression, but if you suppress using grenades on a timer things get a bit more convoluted - you're effectively delaying the activation of the supressive zone by one pass.


For that matter - how do you handle a FA tight burst from a grenade launcher? Just add 9 to the power of the explosion? How do you treat a wide burst? Scatter each grenade separately and calculate overlapping fire zones? There's not even a single hint at how to deal with the issue.

A burst of ten grenades hitting the same spot should do 10+((10/2)x9) =55 DV. But an FA burst should just add 9...

[snowRaven]

I expect that in the future, glass will become a lot less popular as a building material compared to, say, reinforced concrete with spall liner. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Still though, once you start pulling out the math, I say bleh. That's why I just say go with a narrative description of where you're suppressing and let the GM veto it if you're asking to do something ridiculous, like suppress an entire facing of the ACHE with a machine pistol.

The narrative in the case of fully automatic HE grenade suppression being: 'they all die' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[ShadowDragon8685]

The narrative in the case of fully automatic HE grenade suppression being: 'they all die' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Yeah, pretty much. I don't have any problem with something like FA grenade suppression fire just wiping out the riff-riff nameless soldiers* and leaving only the named guys and armored vehicles alive.


*Depending on available cover. If there is good, hard cover available, they're going to ground and they're going to stay suppressed for a good long while.

[Ragewind]

Why would you resolve each grenade separately when you don't resolve each bullet separately in normal suppression,

because you are not firing bullets you are firing Grenades and they have their own specific rules as how to function. However the rules are silent as to how you would determining the original placement in the area suppressed, any decision made is a house rule since nothing tells us how to resolve it. That is assuming you let someone do this in game, as YMMV.

[snowRaven]

because you are not firing bullets you are firing Grenades and they have their own specific rules as how to function. However the rules are silent as to how you would determining the original placement in the area suppressed, any decision made is a house rule since nothing tells us how to resolve it. That is assuming you let someone do this in game, as YMMV.

Well, with the introduction of FA grenade launchers it would be a house rule to *not* let people do it. (The 'suppression for SA/BF weapons from War! is easier to ignore).

Plus, supression rules is a special case from the normal rules as you don't count hits the same way, count damage the same way, or count defense the same way.

If you want to use both rules strictly RAW it would be something like (using HE nades):

Suppress using 20 grenades, everyone makes R+Edge tests to avoid, those hit take 10P, -1/meter
Possibly you'd roll scatter with the person who failed their defense test as ground zero, deducting as usual per number of successes.
It'd probably work, but seems unnecessarily compiclated. Using SA suppression, they 'nades would only do 5P, -1/meter, by RAW.

[Ragewind]

Suppress using 20 grenades, everyone makes R+Edge tests to avoid, those hit take 10P, -1/meter
Possibly you'd roll scatter with the person who failed their defense test as ground zero, deducting as usual per number of successes.
It'd probably work, but seems unnecessarily compiclated. Using SA suppression, they 'nades would only do 5P, -1/meter, by RAW.

That is actually IMO very resonable
as for the Suppression damage, a Grenade Launcher does not have a Damage Code assigned, it is a **, the damage code = whatever grenade you use. So it would be correct to say 10p.

[snowRaven]

That is actually IMO very resonable
as for the Suppression damage, a Grenade Launcher does not have a Damage Code assigned, it is a **, the damage code = whatever grenade you use. So it would be correct to say 10p.

...if you go by that reading of the text (only the base damage of the weapon is halved, not the base damage of the attack, any ammunition would add it's full effects while the base damage of the weapon is halved. And SnS would do full damage on SA suppression (making them more effective for suppression than a assault cannon rounds) while suppression from a taser would still inflict half damage.

[Ragewind]

...if you go by that reading of the text (only the base damage of the weapon is halved, not the base damage of the attack, any ammunition would add it's full effects while the base damage of the weapon is halved. And SnS would do full damage on SA suppression (making them more effective for suppression than a assault cannon rounds) while suppression from a taser would still inflict half damage.

I was under the impression SnS replaced the weapons damage code with 6s.

[snowRaven]

I was under the impression SnS replaced the weapons damage code with 6s.

But it's not the weapon's base damage code. It's the base damage code of the ammunition, much like with grenade launchers.

[Ragewind]

But it's not the weapon's base damage code. It's the base damage code of the ammunition, much like with grenade launchers.

Sounds good then