Spending Karma . . . what do you do Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Nevermind that there are also sentient (and sapient, which he meant) critters, yes.

As always, RAW or not, no good GM would ever allow human form. The spell is broken enough without that.

Nothing Wrong with Critter (Human) Form, as long as you alter how many attribute points are gained. Customize the spell, Change it to 1 point per Hit, assignable to any particular stat (physical) and you should be okay. I have yet to see it abused in our game, though I am the only one who actually uses it. Once you remove the +1 to all physical attributesd per net hit, it makes it far less useable to maximize stats.

I will say that if you do not change the Stat Boost, it is insanely overpowered. I find with the above rule that I tend to have a Human Form with the same stats as my normal Human Form. Of course, I only cast it at Force 3. *Shrug*

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Like I said, I don't believe you can do that. I didn't say I hadn't seen the arguments for it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It depends on a number of assumptions that aren't in the rules (they're also not *not* in the rules, which is the perennial problem). I'm not in the habit of adding major functionality just because the rules don't disallow it. Obviously, people can do whatever they want at their table.

Lucky you (you must play with TJ!). Most people have, though. It's why rules exist.

Not at my table, Yerameyahu... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I agree with you on the stacking of Shapechange... Horrribly abusive, and definitely not allowed at our table. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Yes, Midas, there are very few augs that actually raise Bod itself.

Yes, TJ, but that's a major houserule overhaul of Shapechange. I fully agree, of course, because that's the biggest problem with the spell: massive boosts to all attribs. Combining that with 'Human Form' basically makes it into a super-superior version of Increase [All attributes] + a perfect disguise… it's crazy. If you're going to start *changing* the rules, then that changes things. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Me, I still might not allow Human Form, because I like the idea that the spell is for non-sapient animals. A different spell could be for being a human. But that's just my taste, and extremely secondary to the +stat aspect. IIRC, the last houserule version I proposed was 'no +stats, Body *within* net hits of the subject's *base* Body'. Something like that. I've also seen things like 'you get net hits of +stat points to *distribute* among the Attribs'.

[Shortstraw]

It is my belief that the spell works the second time but then a few seconds later you shrink down from a horse to a shetland pony.




Then you get eaten by a shark... that explodes.... in a swarm of cutter nanites.... made of thermite.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yes, Midas, there are very few augs that actually raise Bod itself.

Yes, TJ, but that's a major houserule overhaul of Shapechange. I fully agree, of course, because that's the biggest problem with the spell: massive boosts to all attribs. Combining that with 'Human Form' basically makes it into a super-superior version of Increase [All attributes] + a perfect disguise… it's crazy. If you're going to start *changing* the rules, then that changes things. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Agreed, but those are the logical changes if you want to reign in the overpowered aspects of the spell.
In our case, we created customized versions of [Metahuman] Form, rather than a redesign of Shapechange itself. I agree that Shapechange/Critter Form should probably be "fixed" though.

[Angelone]

It is my belief that the spell works the second time but then a few seconds later you shrink down from a horse to a shetland pony.




Then you get eaten by a shark... that explodes.... in a swarm of cutter nanites.... made of thermite.

This.

[almost normal]

So the consensus seems to be that BP is more balanced, and KarmaGen is good for making rounded characters and super-powered characters under lazy GMs?

[Yerameyahu]

I dunno about that. BPgen is sort of the archetype for 'minmaxing' (and dump stats), because of the linear costs. If Karmagen characters can seriously beat BPgen under a lazy GM, I'd bet the most common reason would be allowing chargen Initiations (which is a flat difference in the rules, not the gen method). Otherwise, it's probably a wash.

I think many people consider BPgen a little simpler and faster, though?

[Neraph]

... and looking at the thread you quoted, you can see that it was a contentious issue. Ancient History (one of the devs) said using Critter Form to turn into a human was almost certainly not RAI, and you should check with your GM about whether or not it would work at his table.

Most of the sane members of this forum consider the use of the undefined word "animal" in the spell description a dev mistake for the defined "critter" used in the spell name and move on. However, I do grudgingly grant you that by strict reading of the RAW of the spell description human form could be allowable pending GM approval.

I made my point abundantly (and logically) clear. Shapechange requires a critter, (Critter) Form, despite the name, requires only a non-paranormal animal. There are also references in other places to dragons taking human forms through magic (not Greats using their Metahuman Form) that needs to be sustained. It's really quite simple - they can do so because (Human) Form is a legitimate spell.

@ TJ and Yera: While I have explained the RAW (in its bloodiest form), I personally believe that a spell with the same drain code of (Critter) Form that allows you to choose from metavariants only, at average metavariant attributes, and physically looking like the caster (albeit metatyped), is a good middle ground.

For example: Bob the human casts (Troll) Form. He now has average Troll stats (7, 2, 3, 7) and simply looks like Bob as a troll.

I think many people consider BPgen a little simpler and faster, though?

Absolutely.

[Yerameyahu]

I know we've been through it before, Neraph, but I'm perfectly happy concluding that Critter Form is intended to be *identical* to Shapechange, except for the specific-form limitation. Spell 'variants' like that should not have functionality that differs in the way 'the strictest RAW' interpretation mentioned here does. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'm also very happy letting dragons be special, *or* letting everyone have Human Form without the +stats. As long as they're not getting that crazy boost, buying one spell just to be human seems fine; it even fits nicely with *not* letting the much more flexible Shapechange do humans.

I'm fine with houseruling a metavariant form spell, but that's a separate question.