Ambidexterity, adepts, and off-hand weapons, Ambidexterity as an adept power Options

[Smiley]

OK, so i was musing to myself earlier today. I said, "Self, why on earth didn't you get a little ambidexterity at character creation?" Then it occurred to me that i could learn off-hand weapons and all would not be lost. Then it FURTHER occurred to me that maybe the Adept's Handybook (not CANON, i know, but handy all the same) had something about ambidexterity as an adept power. No dice. So i was forced to muse to myself again. "Self, how would this work? What would be fair?"
So myself decided to get some feedback. What does Dumpshock think?
Also, ambidexterity and off-hand weapons rules would be helpful.

[Phaeton]

Hmmm...I personally think it's workable.

[A Clockwork Lime]

Improved Coordination
Cost: 0.25 points per leve, max of 4 levels

Each level of Enhanced Coordination is equivalent to one level of the Ambidexterity edge.

Yes, this does make it cheaper for an adept to acquire the abilities of the edge, but that's how it should be in my opinion. This is something specifically within the focus of even the original "physical" adept concept, and one level of the power is roughly equivalent to a single Improved Sense (several of which are also far more expensive for a non-adept to acquire).

[Smiley]

I was thinking along the same lines but didn't want to say anything to avoid any min/maxing, munchkinism accusations. Anybody else have a take on this?

[Lilt]

I'd go with something like ACL's interpretation, but I'd make it .5/level.

[rationalization] At 2 pts per level, the edge is roughly equivalent to a stat point per level. As stat points are .5/level for adepts, .5/level seems somewhat more balanced. [/rationalization]

[Siege]

The power makes complete conceptual sense -- however, given the flaming debate over paired weapons and game balance, I'd run it past your GM to be sure.

-Siege

[Smiley]

I don't use firearms anyway, so it won't be too bad.
My GM frequents this site so we'll all get to see him tell me to go f*** off together.

[Raptor1033]

well you can get high pain tolerance at .25 (or is it .5?) per level which is equal to a 2 point edge. so why not .25 per level all the way up to level 8? 2 pp for complete ambidexterity ain't unbalancing at all.

[A Clockwork Lime]

High Pain Tolerance is a 2-point edge with an Adept Power Point cost of 0.5 for its equivalence. On the other hand, Low Light Vision is also a 2-point edge that only costs 0.25 Power Points. On yet another hand, Bonus Attribute Point is equivalent to as much as 1.00 Power Points. So using any of those as a basis for determining the cost is pretty much futile since it runs the gamut.

A full Power Point for the ability to weild two firearms without a penalty (yet still suffering the no-targeting devices limitation amongst others) or use melee weapons effectively is hardly overbalanced.

[Smiley]

I was thinking of ambidexterity as a physical skill, not unlike stealth or athletics. Since stealth and athletics cost .25pp to improve, it was my reasoning that ambidexterity should cost .25pp/level as well.

But that's just me.

[Zazen]

The melee benefit is significant enough for it to cost .5 per level, IMO. Getting this at level 3 (1.5 Power Points) provides three extra dice when you have skill 6 and two weapons, identical in cost and bonus dice to three levels of improved ability. If the adept has a higher skill than 6 and/or already has some improved ability, then the bonus is even greater and this becomes quite an efficient use of points.

And that's only limited to the two-weapon melee scenario. There are plenty of other benefits to ambidexterity which make it worthwhile.

[Egon]

I to think this makes perfect sense as an adept power. one of the few suggestions I have heard in a long time that make sense.

As far as to cost I would say .5 per level. It is pretty powerful. I don't think you can go vary far comparing power point cost edge cost, I think they compare more to the cost of cyberware as far as game balance gos.

[Shockwave_IIc]

[mfb]

that sounds like a good idea. maybe 1/2 the cost of KH? .25/.5/1/2?

[Capt. Dave]

[Arethusa]

Personally, I'd suggest something along the lines of 0.2/0.5/1.5/2.0 or, alternatively, 0.2/0.5/1.2/1.5, if you'd like it to be cheaper than 2 points for full ambidexterity. Personally, seem paying a full third of one's starting magic points for ambidexterity is a bit much, but I'm als unfamiliar with magic and even less familiar with adepts. Any opinions?

[Lilt]

Well: power point costs don't tend to come less than 0.25, Arethusa, but the numbers suggested by mfb seem fair.

If you needed to mix it with the ambidexterous edge itself then you could simply buy the power point difference IE: buying 3 to 4 costs 1 power point, regardless of wether the first 3 levels are edge-bought or power-point bought.

[mfb]

consider that, in order buy level 4 ambidexterity, you have to pay 8 character creation points. that's a lot. that's more than the maximum you can invest in a skill (assuming a linked attribute of 6). that's enough to buy you an above-average stat. 2pp for the same benefit? that's cheap. that's a sweet deal, or my name's not Heywood Jablowme.

[Blades]

Why not just pay the karma cost of the edge?
10x BP cost

Well I know it's more expensive than to initiate with the point cost supplied in this tread, but well tought luck :-) it's allready posible for you to get ambidex with canon (optional) rules.....

[Smiley]

On second thought, maybe i'll just get off-hand weapons.

[Shockwave_IIc]

Ok maybe im seeing ambidex to be a little more deadly then some of you, but i was thinking it costing the same as killing hands (.5,1,2,4)

Because assuming a skill of 6, a starting character can roll 18 in a weapons attack without combat pool, and im wanting a character to pay for that ability wether it be a 6 point edge or a third of your magic. Note also the cost could end up being (.5,.75,1.5,3) by taking the geas "melee weapons only"

[Lilt]

The off-hand weapons skill is good, but I don't think any Improved (Main-hand Weapon skill) dice would carry-over to it.

I'm If you're a 6 skill/6 improved skill monkey (as I suspect you are, no offence meant) then to buy the off-hand skill to 6+6 dice will cost you more, even if you compare it to the 60 karma to buy the edge, plus you can't use it to fire two firearms at once effectively.

[Shockwave_IIc]

[A Clockwork Lime]

[Lilt]

@Shockwave_IIc: I was replying to smiley's post, yours just snuck in there first.
I'll talk for a bit anyway:
On 2-pistol shooting:
How exactly is 2 pistol shooting not worth it? It's even more worth it to adepts than it is to sammies as adepts get their improved ability with both hands (2*12 dice shots before combat pool? Yowch). I see no need for house-rules there.

On 2-melee weapons:
Edged weapons is a separate skill from Off-Hand Edged weapons. I am talking about a character that does not have ambidexterity and is using the off-hand weapons skill instead. Unless the GM ruled that Improved Edged Weapons: 6 also gave you Improved Off-Hand Edged Weapons: 6 then the char with the off-hand weapons skill is still a bit lacking.

On the killing hands price equivalence:
The fact that a character can roll 18 dice before combat pool is noted, but I see no real reason to make the costs escalate exponentially. The very last point dosen't give that tremeandous a bonus when compared to the 1st and 2nd levels. Also: If it is available as a straight 2bp/level, then why should the costs increase exponentially for the adept? I could agree in a step in the costs between levels 2 and 3 (due to the enhanced ability to use normal weapons skills for the off-hand) but otherwise strongly doubt the gap between levels 3 and 4 would really be worth 2 power points.