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> Unarmed adept
phlapjack77
post Mar 16 2012, 07:16 AM
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QUOTE (Ragewind @ Mar 16 2012, 03:11 PM) *
That's a very neutral stance, its also very dismissive at the same time. You're basically saying "Meh, I don't feel like arguing anymore, just ask the GM"

As a Aside, "Munchkin" is also a subjective term, it changes per person. What you consider a Munchkin, perhaps I don't, hence the problems with using such descriptor words.

Nah, it's really just a mature realization that people have different viewpoints and so most "rules" are really just agreements made at a certain table.

As an aside, most language (barring maybe mathematics) is subjective. Everybody uses subjective language all the time, "neutral", "dismissive", "basically"...etc. Hence the problems with lecturing people about these things...
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Yerameyahu
post Mar 16 2012, 07:19 AM
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Personally, I don't mind. Language is my favorite topic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Makki, you forgot to suggest that he use a Hardliner *boot* weapon focus with Critical Strike and his Kick Attack!
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Ragewind
post Mar 16 2012, 07:19 AM
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QUOTE (phlapjack77 @ Mar 16 2012, 02:16 AM) *
As an aside, most language (barring maybe mathematics) is subjective. Everybody uses subjective language all the time, "neutral", "dismissive", "basically"...etc. Hence the problems with lecturing people about these things...


Yes I was aware of the Irony
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phlapjack77
post Mar 16 2012, 07:26 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 16 2012, 03:19 PM) *
Personally, I don't mind. Language is my favorite topic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It has fairly recently become a favorite topic of mine as well. Nothing like living in a foreign country to make you stop and think about something you've taken for granted your whole life...

QUOTE (Ragewind @ Mar 16 2012, 03:19 PM) *
Yes I was aware of the Irony

Really? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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UmaroVI
post Mar 16 2012, 10:35 AM
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The real problem with that "edge on a f1 sustaining focus" trick is that you can't keep your spell up 24/7. Need to go through a ward? Say goodbye to that point of edge. Rating 1 background count? Bye bye. Need to sneak past anything that has astral perception? Hope you have more edge! It's got more than enough drawbacks.

For an adept, can you use ways? If yes, Increase Reflexes is debatable. If no, just get Synaptic Boosters.

Re: Possession boosting weapon damage, Digital Grimoire says no.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Mar 16 2012, 03:05 PM
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QUOTE (Ragewind @ Mar 16 2012, 12:04 AM) *
Okay what you do is cast Improve Reflexes at F1, you take your dice (10 or whatever) and add your edge into the roll. As per Shadowrun's own rules, because you added edge you are now allowed to bypass the 1 hit restriction on a F1 spell. You then get say...6 hits. This gives you +6 to Initiative and 4 Passes, you can now place your F1 spell with 6 hits into a F1 Sustaining Focus for 10k Nuyen.

Ta DA

you never suffer the minus for keeping it up, and you get to enjoy greater benefits as well. Ergo, Mystic Adepts are the shizz

I would prefer to spend those 1.5 PP on better things..such as improving a skill to 9 or 10.


You do realize that you CAN get 4 passes for an Adept for the measly cost of 2pp right?
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Yerameyahu
post Mar 16 2012, 03:08 PM
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It's got more than enough drawbacks… if the GM remembers to use them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Mar 16 2012, 03:14 PM
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QUOTE (Ragewind @ Mar 16 2012, 12:38 AM) *
Edge Bypassing force is actually the rule, not even a optional one.


The contention is whether you only get additional hits over Force cap from the EDGE Dice only, or for all Dice in the roll. It actually matters which interpretation you use..
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Mar 16 2012, 03:15 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 16 2012, 09:08 AM) *
It's got more than enough drawbacks… if the GM remembers to use them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


Very Very True... I am a big proponent of using those drawbacks as well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Irion
post Mar 16 2012, 05:06 PM
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QUOTE
Edge Bypassing force is actually the rule, not even a optional one.

So is the fact, that you will be walking through around a dozen BC1 or two on your way to the run. Always screwing up your spell..

Additional to th stuff Tymeaus Jalynsfein mentioned (and which is all true to my knowledge) this is one of this "HaHa" tricks, unless the GM read the rule. To be forced to use edge whenever you need to recast your spells is a severe drawback. Since BC of 1 and more forces you to drop the spell, it gets even worse...
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JonathanC
post Mar 16 2012, 05:22 PM
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So, wait....if Hardliner gloves are generally understood *not* to work, is it then impossible for unarmed-focused adepts to gain the benefits of weapon focii?
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Mickle5125
post Mar 16 2012, 05:24 PM
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I've ruled that you can get the weapon focus enchantment on gloves or rings. things that don't actually apply a bonus to your punching of things.
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Yerameyahu
post Mar 16 2012, 05:44 PM
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Yes, JonathanC, except for the GM houseruling things. This thread illustrates it pretty well: why should the unarmed adept get Adept powers (Deadly, Critical, Elemental) on top of a focus, when armed adepts don't?

If your GM and group aren't concerned about that (and you don't have to be), though, don't let it stop you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Many people are *not* concerned about physical adept power levels, because the poor guys tend to be no wild threat. (You could also let weapon adepts use unarmed powers with their weapons, or with weapon-foci-only?)
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almost normal
post Mar 16 2012, 06:26 PM
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You really don't need the weapon focus. Use elemental sand and ignore armor. Done.
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Yerameyahu
post Mar 16 2012, 06:31 PM
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Sure, or light, sound, whatever. (Bleh, element creep.) But that doesn't stop people from wanting it. Moar numbers! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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phlapjack77
post Mar 16 2012, 06:31 PM
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QUOTE (Mickle5125 @ Mar 17 2012, 01:24 AM) *
I've ruled that you can get the weapon focus enchantment on gloves or rings. things that don't actually apply a bonus to your punching of things.

You're a poet and you do(n't) know it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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JonathanC
post Mar 16 2012, 06:32 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 16 2012, 11:31 AM) *
Sure, or light, sound, whatever. (Bleh, element creep.) But that doesn't stop people from wanting it. Moar numbers! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Sound is almost too cheesy for words. Sand isn't bad, but I think Smoke is the perfect balance. Doesn't it have a chance to suffocate?


EDIT: Thanks for the reminder about unarmed-only powers; I'd forgotten about those. I probably wouldn't allow unarmed weapon focii either, to be honestly.
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Yerameyahu
post Mar 16 2012, 06:36 PM
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Yeah, I feel like it's a fair-ish tradeoff: you can either use weapons/foci (more DP, more DV, more AP), or you can use magic instead (Killing Hands, Elemental, whatever; no need to carry weapons). Both are cool.
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almost normal
post Mar 16 2012, 06:41 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 16 2012, 01:36 PM) *
Yeah, I feel like it's a fair-ish tradeoff: you can either use weapons/foci (more DP, more DV, more AP), or you can use magic instead (Killing Hands, Elemental, whatever; no need to carry weapons). Both are cool.


Yeah, never underestimate that last part. Weapons can be confiscated, focii blocked, magicians masked, but you can always punch an overconfident Johnson in the skull.
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Kolinho
post Mar 16 2012, 06:59 PM
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QUOTE (Ragewind @ Mar 16 2012, 05:48 AM) *
Throw a Possession Spirit or a Inhabiation Spirit into the item. It increases all of the items attributes/stats by its force as well as making practically indestructible and giving you access to whatever powers the spirit has like Movment or Magical Guard.


Not convinced you can do that, or certainly at my table if a spirit possessed a weapon they wouldn't be quiet about it. That is, assuming I hadn't ruled out possession spirits full stop. Which I have.

QUOTE (Ragewind @ Mar 16 2012, 06:04 AM) *
Okay what you do is cast Improve Reflexes at F1, you take your dice (10 or whatever) and add your edge into the roll. As per Shadowrun's own rules, because you added edge you are now allowed to bypass the 1 hit restriction on a F1 spell. You then get say...6 hits. This gives you +6 to Initiative and 4 Passes, you can now place your F1 spell with 6 hits into a F1 Sustaining Focus for 10k Nuyen.

Ta DA

you never suffer the minus for keeping it up, and you get to enjoy greater benefits as well. Ergo, Mystic Adepts are the shizz

I would prefer to spend those 1.5 PP on better things..such as improving a skill to 9 or 10.


Oh dear. Do you have a wet paper bag for a GM?

If you were in my group, we'd be having words.


QUOTE (phlapjack77 @ Mar 16 2012, 06:46 AM) *
Allowing an Edge-boosted Inc Ref spell to be put in a F1 Sustaining Focus is purely power-gamer made up, however.


Like in about 90% of the wording across the books, the interpretation is ambiguous at best. Most of the time, people read it how they want it to be. This is a perfect example of that. As a GM, i'd be tempted to rule out Edge-boosted spells being loaded into Foci. Kinda defeats the point in Edge really.


QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 16 2012, 07:08 AM) *
You can also just ask the GM to allow your Hardliner trick, if it's appropriate for your group and power level. What the rules say is less important than the group's and GM's will, especially if you're not being a munchkin about it.

You see a similar question when people want Hardliner weapon foci, yes. Same answers, IMO.


See wet paper bag comment above. Certainly if he lets it go.

QUOTE (Mickle5125 @ Mar 16 2012, 05:24 PM) *
I've ruled that you can get the weapon focus enchantment on gloves or rings. things that don't actually apply a bonus to your punching of things.


That probably makes sense, I like the inventiveness certainly... but would that not OP Killing Hands and the like? IOW are there not Adept powers requiring no weapons already there to compensate for an unarmed Adept's inability to use Weapon Foci? It would be like allowing Killing Hands to be used with a Ultimax HMG-2, no?
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Yerameyahu
post Mar 16 2012, 07:12 PM
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Hehe, Kolinho, you just repeated everything said here in the last 12 hours. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You're wrong about mine, though: I specifically said, 'seek GM and group approval' and 'if you're not powergaming'. No wet paper GM action here.
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Angelone
post Mar 16 2012, 07:52 PM
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QUOTE (almost normal @ Mar 16 2012, 01:41 PM) *
Yeah, never underestimate that last part. Weapons can be confiscated, focii blocked, magicians masked, but you can always punch an overconfident Johnson in the skull.


That made me smile.

I like bio-adepts for the simple reason of knowing what you aren't going to lose if something screws with your magic. Plus there are some things that are not replicable with magic or just plain cheaper using cyber/bio.
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Kolinho
post Mar 17 2012, 01:16 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 16 2012, 07:12 PM) *
Hehe, Kolinho, you just repeated everything said here in the last 12 hours. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You're wrong about mine, though: I specifically said, 'seek GM and group approval' and 'if you're not powergaming'. No wet paper GM action here.


Ach well (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

And I hope you didn't misunderstand me, I see you are the GM's word > RAW type of guy, as all should be. No time for powergaming myself, that's the sort of thing that should be left to 14 year olds and people with small penises to compensate for.
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snowRaven
post Mar 17 2012, 11:30 AM
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QUOTE (JonathanC @ Mar 16 2012, 06:22 PM) *
So, wait....if Hardliner gloves are generally understood *not* to work, is it then impossible for unarmed-focused adepts to gain the benefits of weapon focii?

QUOTE (Mickle5125 @ Mar 16 2012, 06:24 PM) *
I've ruled that you can get the weapon focus enchantment on gloves or rings. things that don't actually apply a bonus to your punching of things.

At my table, you wouldn't get critical strike etc using weapon foci gloves either. I might allow you to combine critical strike with a cyberhand made into a weapon focus, or perhaps have the focus grafted to your skeleton in some way. Good luck finding someone to make that for you though...

QUOTE (Kolinho @ Mar 17 2012, 02:16 AM) *
And I hope you didn't misunderstand me, I see you are the GM's word > RAW type of guy, as all should be. No time for powergaming myself, that's the sort of thing that should be left to 14 year olds and people with small penises to compensate for.

...or for a one-shot fool-around game (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Kolinho
post Mar 17 2012, 12:11 PM
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QUOTE (snowRaven @ Mar 17 2012, 11:30 AM) *
...or for a one-shot fool-around game (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


Aye, fair enough. I prefer character development and back story tie-ins so the idea off rolling über-toons for a one-off isn't really my kind of thing.

Perhaps the penis comment was a bit extreme (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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