DIY Worth the cost? Options

[yesferatu]

Hey guys,

So I was upgrading a comlink the other day and it occurred to me that doing it yourself isn't really any cheaper than buying new.
My character has skills in mechanics, armorer, electronics and software and in almost every case, it costs about the same to just buy stuff off the rack.

Am I crazy or is there next to no benefit in trade-skills?

[CanRay]

Other than having a custom piece that isn't festooned with Adware, Spyware, RFID Tags, and a whole hell of a lot of other things, in addition to being tailored specifically for you rather than being "Off The Rack"? Oh, and also being a fiend to fashion having to have the LATEST iCommlink?

No.

[Mantis]

Well, the hardware parts are half the price of the upgrades (pg 227 SR4A). So it is cheaper, if you really build it yourself, but you need to take the time as the chart on pg.228 SR4A shows.

[Yerameyahu]

If it were significantly cheaper, it'd very quickly be too cheap. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) In addition, what you're often avoiding are the *extra* labor costs of things, which are usually unlisted (Vehicle and Weapon mods, especially).

To me, the point of Build/Repair skills is mostly repair.

[VykosDarkSoul]

Not to mention the fact that mabye you took the comlinks off that other team you just fragged, emptied their accounts and discovered that one of them had some pretty sweet mods, so you decide to gut it and install them in to yours.

[Ryu]

Hey guys,

So I was upgrading a comlink the other day and it occurred to me that doing it yourself isn't really any cheaper than buying new.
My character has skills in mechanics, armorer, electronics and software and in almost every case, it costs about the same to just buy stuff off the rack.

Am I crazy or is there next to no benefit in trade-skills?

If all you want is a good comlink, the investment into the required secondary skills and tools would be much higher than the cost of ordering custom from a reliable source.

There is a substantial benefit if you set up for burning high-grade response chips for multiple vehicles/drones/links per team member.

[yesferatu]

I think I didn't initially see the 1/2 price hardware costs.
I'm not sure what to do about software - as there doesn't seem to be an upgrade cost.

I'd probably plan on scrounging up coms and gear so I can feed the team.

[Yerameyahu]

Software costs what software costs, that's all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You just buy it and load it (or, write your own, I guess).

[yesferatu]

I noticed that the only place the hardware 1/2 cost thing is mentioned is under the comlink section.
It's not mentioned at all in Arsenal and i can't find it in Unwired.

Does that rule also apply for things like Mechanic or Armorer? i can't find a rule either way.
You would think that fixing or modding your own gear would be cheaper.

[Yerameyahu]

The short answer is no. The 50% rule only applies to Hardware.

There are couple ways to deal with Build/Repair. Some people have the parts use the same cost as buying them, but you don't have to pay someone to install/etc. (This is mostly for things like Vehicle and Weapon mods, but also Surgery?) Technically, all the vehicle and weapon mod list prices are for the parts, with skills required to install.

In other cases, the GM will just extend the 50% rule (or 75%, etc.) to represent the cost of buying kits and assembling them yourself.

[Shortstraw]

We mainly use the technical skill build options as an alternate availability check - no negotiation skill? No problem!

Edit: also harder to be tracked down for having forbidden items if there is no record of them.

Double edit: also role-playing and stuff.

[Paul]

Building with stolen parts can reduce the cost, assuming the effort to steal said parts isn't outlandishly difficult or dangerous. But I think CanRay's initial post sums it up pretty well.

[CanRay]

But I think CanRay's initial post sums it up pretty well.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Daddy's Litt...]

DYI like the b/r skills will be good depending on your game. When everything works and you have just the right stuff you are good to go but when the evil, sadistic GM who is god mother to your first born child throws a surprise in the skills let you wing it much better.

[CanRay]

Honestly, never forget that you're getting stuff that's factory seconds, fallen off the back of a truck, used to hell and back, and so on.

Those gutter AK-97s probably haven't been cleaned since the Eurowars after going through the hands of untrained Middle Eastern rebels or a series of gangers in South and North America.

That Ford AmeriCar? It's last tune-up was in 2050. And it's the 2047 model.

Your CommLink? Knock-off whose connections wiggle out after being turned on and off five or six times, and has to be dropped from five feet in the air in order to be turned on again. (Don't laugh, some of the original Home Computers were exactly like this! And that was the Tech Support solution!!!).

It's very, very rare that a 'Runner is getting good quality stuff that isn't completely legal, and even then they're probably getting a cheap version of it at a Stuffer Shack unless they have a really good Fake SIN. (Or are a SINner). This means it'll break down soon enough, and will either need replacing or repairing. With repairing being a better option when the heat's on and you can't leave your Squat.

[yesferatu]

I guess it's the difference between paying half for chameleon coating a bulldog and paying an extra 10%-60% for having your mechanic contact do it for you.
I've been running with a scavenger concept character who generally makes more off the leftovers than the job.
It just didn't make any sense that I took all these points in mechanic, armorer & hardware, but it's cheaper to hand everything off to a contact to get upgraded.

[Yerameyahu]

Well, again, the normal price for the chameleon mod is full list price; those prices don't assume installation or tools.

[VykosDarkSoul]

I guess it's the difference between paying half for chameleon coating a bulldog and paying an extra 10%-60% for having your mechanic contact do it for you.
I've been running with a scavenger concept character who generally makes more off the leftovers than the job.
It just didn't make any sense that I took all these points in mechanic, armorer & hardware, but it's cheaper to hand everything off to a contact to get upgraded.

Well, i suppose the other thing you have to remember with the scav, and i have a player doing this as well, is that those are on hand....NOW... you dont have to wait to find them, you dont have to worry about being overcharged or a dry market etc.

[Paul]

Honestly, never forget that you're getting stuff that's factory seconds, fallen off the back of a truck, used to hell and back, and so on.

It's very, very rare that a 'Runner is getting good quality stuff that isn't completely legal, and even then they're probably getting a cheap version of it at a Stuffer Shack unless they have a really good Fake SIN. (Or are a SINner). This means it'll break down soon enough, and will either need replacing or repairing. With repairing being a better option when the heat's on and you can't leave your Squat.

I think this is a valid point in some games, obviously your mileage will vary from table to table, but generally speaking my players know that almost everything they purchase is stolen, second hand, or otherwise used. (These cybereyes had one original owner who barely used them, and that's why i can sell them to you so cheap!)

I basically do it this way-if a player settles on taking some B/R skills I'll make it a common part of the game. If no one does, we sort of skirt the issue. (Not avoid, rather it just doesn't play as big a role.)

[Emperor Tippy]

Honestly, never forget that you're getting stuff that's factory seconds, fallen off the back of a truck, used to hell and back, and so on.

Those gutter AK-97s probably haven't been cleaned since the Eurowars after going through the hands of untrained Middle Eastern rebels or a series of gangers in South and North America.

That Ford AmeriCar? It's last tune-up was in 2050. And it's the 2047 model.

Your CommLink? Knock-off whose connections wiggle out after being turned on and off five or six times, and has to be dropped from five feet in the air in order to be turned on again. (Don't laugh, some of the original Home Computers were exactly like this! And that was the Tech Support solution!!!).

It's very, very rare that a 'Runner is getting good quality stuff that isn't completely legal, and even then they're probably getting a cheap version of it at a Stuffer Shack unless they have a really good Fake SIN. (Or are a SINner). This means it'll break down soon enough, and will either need replacing or repairing. With repairing being a better option when the heat's on and you can't leave your Squat.

No, it's really not. A standard, new, PC is 400 BP. Every single one of them is a very highly skilled and trained expert in a given field, often one of the best on the entire planet in their specialty (and you can come out of character creation with a character who is legitimately the best in the world at a given task). Most of them are running around with enough ware inside them to buy a lifetimes middle class lifestyle.

When you run you are burning SIN's, safehouses, drones, and equipment like water. As in even a fairly low end run can see you burning upwards of 12K on disposables per runner.

Runners only buy cheap when it doesn't matter.

Most runners are equipped with state of the art, bleeding edge, tech and gear that has individual price tags larger than most of the SINer populations monthly income.

The people running with second hand crap gear are disposable idiots who barely rank with the gangers; the difference (in pretty much every category) between them and PC level runners is extreme.

[Yerameyahu]

*shrug* The true answer is presumably in the middle. Almost everything in the gear listing is black market stuff. That doesn't mean 'crap', but it does mean irregularities in the supply chain and provenance. It's certainly correct to bear this in mind.