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> Sixth World Magic: Mind Probe, Just what does getting probed mean...
Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Mar 24 2012, 02:33 PM
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QUOTE (phlapjack77 @ Mar 23 2012, 11:06 PM) *
Normally you're pretty reasonable, but EVERY SINGLE one of your arguments ever is of the form "My table / I don't have a problem with it, so noone else should".

Different people have different perspectives. Just because people have different perspectives than yours doesn't make them stupid or illiterate. Jeez.


Never said they did Phlapjack77. My comment was in direct response to Draco18s, who was responding to Yeramayahu. Sorry, but it is extrememly obvious from the text of the spell on how it works. You have a Caster, a Subject (Which is often the Caster, but does not have to be) and a target. Not sure how that is vague or incapable of being read in any manner that is not clear.

Has nothing to do with how my table does things in this regard. It is definitely a reading comprehension issue. The fact is that I can see how some can have issues on this, BECUASE reading comprehension/competency has really sufferred in the past 20 years for children in schools. I know this because I have seen first hand the vast number of "High School Graduates" who cannot even read at the High School Level, and some barely able to read at the elementary level, including my brother. It is not a failure of the Individual, per se, but a failure of the education system. If that did not come across, or came out wrong, then I offer my apologies.
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Yerameyahu
post Mar 24 2012, 02:52 PM
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It's not *extremely* obvious, because this spell specifically gives people trouble. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Mar 24 2012, 03:03 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 24 2012, 07:52 AM) *
It's not *extremely* obvious, because this spell specifically gives people trouble. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


I disagree about the obviousness of it. It IS obvious. The trouble comes in when individuals do not understand that there are a Caster (The Mage), a Subject (Recipient of the Ability or Sense, which May be the Caster, but CAN be anyone else) and a Target (The Victim). Once you actually UNDERSTAND that, there is no ambiguity.

It comes down to reading comprehension. Which is becoming more of a problem in America.
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Yerameyahu
post Mar 24 2012, 03:10 PM
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So it's obvious after you know it's there? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) That's not 'extremely', ha!

But the main point was that it's weird, not that it's unclear. It's weird that detection spells (esp. 'direct' ones like Mind Probe) grant a sense to the subject, who *then* uses the sense. Weird doesn't mean 'bad' or 'broken'.

Just as an aside, though: you, of all people, are in no position to talk about reading comprehension. You *never* read my posts before responding to them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Draco18s
post Mar 24 2012, 03:25 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 24 2012, 09:52 AM) *
It's not *extremely* obvious, because this spell periodically gives people trouble. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


Fixed that for you. This isn't the first time this spell has come up, nor will it be the last.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Mar 24 2012, 08:11 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 24 2012, 08:10 AM) *
Just as an aside, though: you, of all people, are in no position to talk about reading comprehension. You *never* read my posts before responding to them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


Maybe if they actually had anything of substance in them... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
I do actually read them, I just sometimes (often?) disagree with what you say...
No Worries. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Yerameyahu
post Mar 24 2012, 08:30 PM
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See, I don't think that's it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Half the time, you respond to things I didn't say, haha.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Mar 25 2012, 01:47 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 24 2012, 02:30 PM) *
See, I don't think that's it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Half the time, you respond to things I didn't say, haha.


Ahhh...
But the responses will often link to things OTHERS have said. It is not always about you, even if I choose to respond to the topic with a quote that originates from you... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

No worries, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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KarmaInferno
post Mar 25 2012, 05:57 AM
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Is it worded in a technically correct manner?

Yes?

Could it have been worded more clearly?

Also yes.

If a particular rules snaffle repeatedly comes up over time, it doesn't matter if the wording is technically correct. It is still confusing enough to cause the repeated snaffle, and likely needs to be re-worded in a clearer and more intuitive manner.




-k
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phlapjack77
post Mar 25 2012, 06:01 AM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 24 2012, 10:33 PM) *
Not sure how that is vague or incapable of being read in any manner that is not clear.

And this is my main complaint against you - you constantly are incapable of seeing any other viewpoint but your own. If you think something is one way, you're totally unable to see how others would see it another way.

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 24 2012, 10:33 PM) *
Has nothing to do with how my table does things in this regard. It is definitely a reading comprehension issue. The fact is that I can see how some can have issues on this, BECUASE reading comprehension/competency has really sufferred in the past 20 years for children in schools. I know this because I have seen first hand the vast number of "High School Graduates" who cannot even read at the High School Level, and some barely able to read at the elementary level, including my brother. It is not a failure of the Individual, per se, but a failure of the education system. If that did not come across, or came out wrong, then I offer my apologies.

Do you not see how you've made a connection between these people who can barely read, and those of us (me included) who find this spell weird and somewhat confusing? Do you not see how insulting and dismissive that is? I'm guessing you don't.

Thanks for the offered apologies. I offer my apologies as well. It is the internet, after all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Mar 25 2012, 02:09 PM
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QUOTE (phlapjack77 @ Mar 24 2012, 11:01 PM) *
And this is my main complaint against you - you constantly are incapable of seeing any other viewpoint but your own. If you think something is one way, you're totally unable to see how others would see it another way.


Do you not see how you've made a connection between these people who can barely read, and those of us (me included) who find this spell weird and somewhat confusing? Do you not see how insulting and dismissive that is? I'm guessing you don't.

Thanks for the offered apologies. I offer my apologies as well. It is the internet, after all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



No Worries Phlapjack77... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Just a question, though. And I am not trying to be a prick here...

Since ALL, the Detection Spells work in the same manner, why is this spelll any more complex, weird or confusing than Detect Enemies. I can understand if you do not like the way the mechanic is structured, but I do not see it as being confusing at all. It is pretty straight forward. See Text Below.

QUOTE (SR4A, Detection Spells)
Detection spells give the subject a new sense, beyond the normal five senses, for as long as they are maintained. They are cast upon either the magician or a subject within Touch range. Using the sense may require the subject to take a Simple Action to Observe in Detail (p. 147). Detection spells are either directional (like normal sight), area effect (work in all directions at once, like hearing), or psychic (providing some other special “sense” such as telepathy or precognition).


I truly do not see how it can be read any other way. I might be better able to understand if you said that ALL Detection Spells were weird and confusing, but that is not what you (nor most of the others) claimed. Maybe that is the disconnect here. Why is Mind Probe any more weird than Detect Enemies or Clairvoyance? Other than it being structured slightly differently than previous editions.
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Yerameyahu
post Mar 25 2012, 02:29 PM
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It's weird because it's not, intuitively, a 'new sense'. It seems very different from Detect Enemies. It *seems* to be a spell you cast on someone to probe their mind. It also doesn't seem like an ability you'd give other people. That's just thematics and intuition, but it's still there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Mar 25 2012, 03:46 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 25 2012, 08:29 AM) *
It's weird because it's not, intuitively, a 'new sense'. It seems very different from Detect Enemies. It *seems* to be a spell you cast on someone to probe their mind. It also doesn't seem like an ability you'd give other people. That's just thematics and intuition, but it's still there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


Okay...

Here is my take:

It is a spell that is used to provide someone (generally the caster but potentially an ally) the ability to probe someone else's Mind.

Thematically, it is no different than your take, correct?

I agree that you would not likely give that ability to someone else, though in this edition you can. I can see instances (though not many) when that might be preferrable to the magician utilizing the ability.

I also agree that it is not, intuitively, a 'New Sense' as you indicated. Though I do see it as analogous to a new detection ability. Being Directional, it is a bit odd, I would likely have classified it as Psychic, but I can live with that, because it limits the utility of the spell (unless you are using Ritual Sorcery, of course). Yes, the Detect Spells are pretty obvious, as are the Vision Enhancing spells, but is Mind Probe really any more problematic than many of the other spells that are not intuitively a new sense? Spells like Analyze Truth, Catalog, Diagnose, Thought Recognition or even Translate? Do you treat Mind Probe differently than these spells? And if so, Why?
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Yerameyahu
post Mar 25 2012, 04:15 PM
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I treat them all the same, because the rules say to. But Mind Probe definitely stands apart, in theory, from all of those. The ability to probe someone's mind just doesn't feel like a 'sense'. It feels like casting a fireball. All the spells you mention indeed 'feel' like senses to me, though some more or less than others (Thought Recognition, maybe?). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I think the reason is that it so clearly has a 'victim'. It also seems too gross a power to just grant to someone (akin to granting the ability to throw fireballs). Again, I'm just talking about feelings, impressions, and intuitions, here.

In general, I still think it's weird that Detection spells grant senses to subjects at all. To me, this is as if Healing spells granted the ability to heal, or Combat spells granted the ability to throw fireballs. But, that's beside the point.
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Draco18s
post Mar 25 2012, 04:44 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 25 2012, 10:46 AM) *
It is a spell that is used to provide someone (generally the caster but potentially an ally) the ability to probe someone else's Mind.


Here's a question:

How many minds can they probe per casting?
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snowRaven
post Mar 25 2012, 10:30 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 25 2012, 06:44 PM) *
Here's a question:

How many minds can they probe per casting?


since the spell states that the target (singular) is determined at the time of casting, I'd say one - determined by the caster (not the subject). That part is unclear, at least.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Mar 26 2012, 12:21 AM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 25 2012, 09:44 AM) *
Here's a question:

How many minds can they probe per casting?



Well... Let's Look at the Spell...

QUOTE (Mind Probe)
This spell allows the subject to telepathically probe the mind of a specific target within range of the sense (chosen when the spell is cast). The target is aware of the probing, though they may not know the source of the spell. If the caster gains one or more net hits, consult the Mind Probe Results table for the information gained.


Seems pretty specific to me. ONE Mind per Casting. Chosen at the time of the Casting. I do not think that it could be any more clear. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
And the Caster would have to choose the target, since he is the one casting the spell, and the target must be chosen as the spell is cast.
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Draco18s
post Mar 26 2012, 01:01 AM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 25 2012, 07:21 PM) *
Seems pretty specific to me. ONE Mind per Casting. Chosen at the time of the Casting. I do not think that it could be any more clear. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


Congratulations on throwing a passive aggressive insult at me, 'cause you know, I asked the question without having the book handy.

Oh, and doing it after the question had already been answered.
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Yerameyahu
post Mar 26 2012, 01:02 AM
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That's what's so weird about it: the spell gives someone the power to probe one specific person's mind. That's not a sense. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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phlapjack77
post Mar 26 2012, 02:29 AM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 25 2012, 10:09 PM) *
Since ALL, the Detection Spells work in the same manner, why is this spelll any more complex, weird or confusing than Detect Enemies. I can understand if you do not like the way the mechanic is structured, but I do not see it as being confusing at all.

Speaking strictly for myself, the confusion sets in not upon reading, but upon recalling a month later. Most spells in this game, in other games, in literature, etc, have the caster (subject) and a target (person / place / thing). Agreed?

So when trying to recall something specific, Detection spells go against all my other "learned" knowledge about how spells work. No, it doesn't cause a train wreck of hours of book searching. It takes a few seconds at most to sort my thoughts out...

But this is my specific problem with it. It shouldn't be confusing enough to take even a few seconds to rehash in my brain that Detection spells have a caster, a subject (person) and a target (person / place / thing). And then Mind Probe throws yet another wrench in the works. There's a famous book about programming UIs called Don't Make Me Think. The premise is that even the littlest, the tiniest fly in someone's mental-process-ointment is a bad thing.

Again, I want to reiterate that this isn't something I'm butt-hurt about. I just think the rules for Detection spells are a little weird and I would rather they followed the norm of every other spell.
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Draco18s
post Mar 26 2012, 03:10 AM
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QUOTE (phlapjack77 @ Mar 25 2012, 09:29 PM) *
Speaking strictly for myself, the confusion sets in not upon reading, but upon recalling a month later. Most spells in this game, in other games, in literature, etc, have the caster (subject) and a target (person / place / thing). Agreed?


Precisely.

QUOTE
There's a famous book about programming UIs called Don't Make Me Think. The premise is that even the littlest, the tiniest fly in someone's mental-process-ointment is a bad thing.


I had an HCI class in college.

And it irks me when people think that "it's not an issue" that there's a problem with their UI design (be it a computer program, a door, a telephone, or whatever else).
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Mar 26 2012, 04:18 PM
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QUOTE (phlapjack77 @ Mar 25 2012, 07:29 PM) *
Speaking strictly for myself, the confusion sets in not upon reading, but upon recalling a month later. Most spells in this game, in other games, in literature, etc, have the caster (subject) and a target (person / place / thing). Agreed?

So when trying to recall something specific, Detection spells go against all my other "learned" knowledge about how spells work. No, it doesn't cause a train wreck of hours of book searching. It takes a few seconds at most to sort my thoughts out...

But this is my specific problem with it. It shouldn't be confusing enough to take even a few seconds to rehash in my brain that Detection spells have a caster, a subject (person) and a target (person / place / thing). And then Mind Probe throws yet another wrench in the works. There's a famous book about programming UIs called Don't Make Me Think. The premise is that even the littlest, the tiniest fly in someone's mental-process-ointment is a bad thing.

Again, I want to reiterate that this isn't something I'm butt-hurt about. I just think the rules for Detection spells are a little weird and I would rather they followed the norm of every other spell.


Okay, I think I understand your position. I was curious, that's all.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Mar 26 2012, 04:22 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 25 2012, 06:01 PM) *
Congratulations on throwing a passive aggressive insult at me, 'cause you know, I asked the question without having the book handy.

Oh, and doing it after the question had already been answered.


You're welcome... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
No worries, Draco18s. Was not trying to make it an issue.
It appeared from what SnowRaven said that he was a bit unclear about it, is all, so I provided the quote. I might have misinterpreted his position.
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Draco18s
post Mar 26 2012, 05:54 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 26 2012, 11:22 AM) *
I might have misinterpreted his position.


I think he typo'd his last sentence, but the intent was fairly clear.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Mar 26 2012, 06:07 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 26 2012, 10:54 AM) *
I think he typo'd his last sentence, but the intent was fairly clear.


Quite Possibly... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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