 Subduing Combat question |
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 Mar 19 2012, 05:57 AM
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#1
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083  |
So, melee combat, particularly in 4th edition, is often considered to be kind of a sucker's game, or at least something that you have to build yourself around. Fair enough. But I was looking over the rules for Subduing combat and WOW, that's pretty harsh.
1. All you have to do is hit the target. It doesn't even have to be that hard if you have a high strength, since you just compare strength + net hits versus the target's body. If you win, that's it, they're grappled. 2. In order to escape, the defender has to spend an entire Complex Action, and then manage to beat your net hits with their own strength + unarmed combat (not things that most people, even NPCs, invest in...) 3. The whole time they're grappled, they can't take any actions requiring physical movement (like dodging...) and are considered prone for the purposes of any attacks against them. 4. Meanwhile, you can sit back and do damage equal to your strength (not half your strength, as would be the usual in melee combat), undefended, during every initiative pass (they get impact armor though) This seems like a pretty sweet deal, especially considering that going by the rules, there is no disadvantage to the attacker. The target is unable to move and is prone, but by RAW, as near as I can tell, the attacker still gets defense rolls if anyone shoots at him (and could, in theory, be using his target as a human shield). So unless I'm missing something, a Troll wrestler in a luchador mask might just be the most awesome hired muscle ever. |
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Mar 19 2012, 06:17 AM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 233 Joined: 27-September 10 From: New York Member No.: 19,080 |
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Mar 19 2012, 12:57 AM)  So, melee combat, particularly in 4th edition, is often considered to be kind of a sucker's game, or at least something that you have to build yourself around. Fair enough. But I was looking over the rules for Subduing combat and WOW, that's pretty harsh. 1. All you have to do is hit the target. It doesn't even have to be that hard if you have a high strength, since you just compare strength + net hits versus the target's body. If you win, that's it, they're grappled. 2. In order to escape, the defender has to spend an entire Complex Action, and then manage to beat your net hits with their own strength + unarmed combat (not things that most people, even NPCs, invest in...) 3. The whole time they're grappled, they can't take any actions requiring physical movement (like dodging...) and are considered prone for the purposes of any attacks against them. 4. Meanwhile, you can sit back and do damage equal to your strength (not half your strength, as would be the usual in melee combat), undefended, during every initiative pass (they get impact armor though) This seems like a pretty sweet deal, especially considering that going by the rules, there is no disadvantage to the attacker. The target is unable to move and is prone, but by RAW, as near as I can tell, the attacker still gets defense rolls if anyone shoots at him (and could, in theory, be using his target as a human shield). So unless I'm missing something, a Troll wrestler in a luchador mask might just be the most awesome hired muscle ever. I'll have to reread the rules for that, and I'm AFB right now, but if it all works as you say it does, you could be on to something. The group I game with plays a lot of The Other Game when I can't con them into playing SR, and one or two of them are obsessed with grapple rules, so it definitely bears looking over. As far as the troll in the luchador mask...did you really *need* to think that hard to realize that would be awesome? ~R~ |
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Mar 19 2012, 07:26 AM
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#3
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083 |
Couldn't help myself....I statted up a rough draft of what this guy might look like as an Adept (I think the concept is cheaper if done with cyber; might try that next). The idea is that he boosts his strength up at the start of combat, then gets his hands on you...his raw unarmed skill with a specialty in Martial Arts (wrestling) is 14, plus 2 to subduing attacks from the MA advantages (book says you can take that +1 twice) for a total of 16 dice, plus whatever you get his strength up to (the boost test only has 7 dice by my count, but he can throw edge into it for an even 10 dice). I gave him throwing and a bunch of grenades....between the flash pack and the thermal smoke grenades, the idea is that he can blind a room full of targets, switch on the Ultrasound vision in his goggles, and basically tear them apart.
[ Spoiler ]
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Mar 19 2012, 07:34 AM
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#4
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,473 Joined: 24-May 10 From: Beijing Member No.: 18,611 |
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Mar 19 2012, 03:26 PM) Couldn't help myself....I statted up a rough draft of what this guy might look like as an Adept (I think the concept is cheaper if done with cyber; might try that next). I've seen a build here on DS (Sangre-y-Acero tournament thread?) using cyber and a hydraulic press cyberlimb plug-in. Grapple, then do STR 20 damage...cue Mike Meyers quote here (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
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Mar 19 2012, 07:42 AM
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#5
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083 |
QUOTE (phlapjack77 @ Mar 19 2012, 12:34 AM) cue Mike Meyers quote here (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Which one: Schwing! Yeah, baby, yeah! Get in mah belly! Donkey! |
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Mar 19 2012, 07:49 AM
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#6
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Man... I think you could be onto something wicked here. An entire team consisting of masked luchadore trolls. Better yet, give them all the movement-speed-enhancers you can think of and turn them into Turbo Trolls!
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Mar 19 2012, 07:53 AM
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#7
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,473 Joined: 24-May 10 From: Beijing Member No.: 18,611 |
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Mar 19 2012, 03:42 PM) Which one: Schwing! Yeah, baby, yeah! Get in mah belly! Donkey! What was the one, I vaguely remember it - "I'm pinching your head!" (might not have even been Meyers...sorry if scumbag brain has lead me astray again) |
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Mar 19 2012, 07:58 AM
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#8
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Target Group: Members Posts: 38 Joined: 16-September 09 From: Germany Member No.: 17,643 |
I don't want to spoil the mood here, but I don't think it's so effective.
In step 2 of the procedure above the grappled person gets an unopposed check, and if the grappler managed to get only a few hits, that should be possible to achieve. (We had this case in the last session and the PC opted to just punch his oppenent.) |
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Mar 19 2012, 08:03 AM
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#9
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,373 Joined: 14-January 10 From: Stuttgart, Germany Member No.: 18,036 |
what you need to do is
1. Grapple 2. Use Finishing Move maneuver to either do tons of stun damage (=> wound modifier) or make a follow up attack to improve your grapple so he won't reach your threshold set If your dicepool is really good, you can even headlock two people at once. Now this should be fun. Bud Spencer style. |
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Mar 19 2012, 09:31 AM
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#10
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,665 Joined: 26-April 03 From: Sweden Member No.: 4,516 |
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Mar 19 2012, 08:26 AM) Couldn't help myself....I statted up a rough draft of what this guy might look like as an Adept (I think the concept is cheaper if done with cyber; might try that next). The idea is that he boosts his strength up at the start of combat, then gets his hands on you...his raw unarmed skill with a specialty in Martial Arts (wrestling) is 14, plus 2 to subduing attacks from the MA advantages (book says you can take that +1 twice) for a total of 16 dice, plus whatever you get his strength up to (the boost test only has 7 dice by my count, but he can throw edge into it for an even 10 dice). I gave him throwing and a bunch of grenades....between the flash pack and the thermal smoke grenades, the idea is that he can blind a room full of targets, switch on the Ultrasound vision in his goggles, and basically tear them apart. You, sir, are a genius! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) I'm so using that guy!!! |
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Mar 19 2012, 10:39 AM
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#11
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 15-December 09 Member No.: 17,968 |
At 16 dice you're better than any ninja (or indeed all the ninja by the Law of Conservation of Ninja!) so being able to strangle-hold a guy into unconsciousness or snap his neck in a matter of seconds seems perfectly reasonable to me.
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Mar 19 2012, 11:36 AM
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#12
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,700 Joined: 1-July 10 Member No.: 18,778 |
Yes, Subduing is one of the really good uses of melee combat.
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