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> Magic vs Barriers, Help
Bearclaw
post Mar 20 2012, 09:36 PM
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OK, I'm sure this has come up, but humor me.
We'll start simple.

Magic vs Barrier
Power Bolt at force 6 vs Security Door, Armor 8, Structure 9.

I need to destroy the door to get through it.
Object Resistance = 4

So, I throw my 16 dice and get 6 hits. Minus OR4 means 2 net hits.
I do 8 points of damage, which beats the armor rating so I get to do damage. If I only had 1 net hit, my damage would be 7, not beating the Armor rating, so I would have done no damage.

The barrier rolls 8 dice, gets three hits and I do 5 damage, out of it's 9 structure. So there is no hole through it but it's damaged. I do the exact same thing next round, overcoming the structure of 9, and blow a 1 meter hole through the door, effectively destroying it.
Right? Am I missing anything?
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Stahlseele
post Mar 20 2012, 10:00 PM
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Sounds about right.
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Bearclaw
post Mar 20 2012, 10:12 PM
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OK, same situation, but I use Ignite instead.

It does the same 5 damage the first turn, and every turn I sustain it until the door is destroyed, right?
Or, does it not get a damage resistance test at all?

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BishopMcQ
post Mar 20 2012, 10:18 PM
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The door would resist damage with its Armor rating against Ignite.
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Bearclaw
post Mar 20 2012, 10:28 PM
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QUOTE (BishopMcQ @ Mar 20 2012, 03:18 PM) *
The door would resist damage with its Armor rating against Ignite.


That's what the 8 dice the door rolled were, right?
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UmaroVI
post Mar 20 2012, 10:39 PM
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Objects do not get resistance rolls against direct combat spells. In your first example, the wall just takes 8 damage. SR4A 204, parenthetical at the end of the 2nd paragraph.

Ignite does nothing whatsoever until it becomes permanent. Ignite at force 6 has drain 3, so it does nothing for 5 turns, then on the 6th turn becomes permanent. At this point it is ordinary, nonmagical fire that does 6P on the 6th turn, 7P on the the 7th turn, 8P on the 8th turn, and so on until something puts it out or the structure is destroyed. It works like any other sort of mundane fire and is thus resisted with the barrier's Armor.



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Bearclaw
post Mar 20 2012, 10:45 PM
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QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Mar 20 2012, 03:39 PM) *
Objects do not get resistance rolls against direct combat spells. In your first example, the wall just takes 8 damage. SR4A 204, parenthetical at the end of the 2nd paragraph.

Ignite does nothing whatsoever until it becomes permanent. Ignite at force 6 has drain 3, so it does nothing for 5 turns, then on the 6th turn becomes permanent. At this point it is ordinary, nonmagical fire that does 6P on the 6th turn, 7P on the the 7th turn, 8P on the 8th turn, and so on until something puts it out or the structure is destroyed. It works like any other sort of mundane fire and is thus resisted with the barrier's Armor.


Pg 183 says they do, 204 says they don't. WTF?

Do you have a page reference for the ignite/permanent spell thing? I can't find it.

edit > Nevermind. Page 203.
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UmaroVI
post Mar 20 2012, 11:08 PM
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Pg 183 says by default they do (and combat spells that aren't Direct work like that), then Direct spells are an exception to the general rule. It is indeed sloppy editing, though.
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BishopMcQ
post Mar 20 2012, 11:09 PM
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SR4A, p. 183, and p. 204 both state that Direct Combat Spells use the OR as a threshold, and Indirect Combat Spells resist with Armorx2, or Armor for Elemental effects. (Admittedly all of the Indirect spells that deal Physical damage are Elemental effects, but the case could be made to create a Physical damage version of Clout using the rules from Street Magic.)

My apologies for above, the post was discussing Combat spells and I forgot that Ignite was a Manipulation spell.

As I read it:
Powerbolt - slags the door directly, 8P no resist, just overcome the OR.
Flamethrower - No OR is used, Force 6 + 6 hits, resist 12P with Armor of the Barrier, possible secondary effects.
Ignite - Overcome the OR, Sustain until permanent, then as Umaro posted.
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Bearclaw
post Mar 20 2012, 11:19 PM
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So for Powerbolt and Ignite the Armor doesn't come into play at all?

So, what if the Armor Rating goes up? Instead of a door, I'm trying to blast a cop car:
Chrysler-Nissan Patrol 1, Body 10, Armor 10.

Flamethrower wouldn't hurt at all because I need to beat the armor rating of 10.
Ignite would destroy it 2 turns after it became permanent.
Powerbolt would do a generic 6 points of damage to the body 10 car, mostly destroying it.
Right?
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BishopMcQ
post Mar 20 2012, 11:28 PM
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For Ignite, it follows the normal rules for Fire damage on SR4A p 164-165. It would be resisted with Armor.

Vehicle armor follows rules like Hardened armor--if modified DV does not exceed the modified Armor rating, it does no damage. From your example above, F6 + 6 hits, would be a DV of 12 against Armor 10/2 (because of AP). As 12 > 5, the Flamethrower would deal damage, and it would be soaked with Body + 1/2 Armor or 15 dice.
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Bearclaw
post Mar 20 2012, 11:31 PM
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Right on. And the Power bolt would still just do it's 6 points.
force 6 + 6 hits - OR 6 = 6 boxes of damage, right?

Or am I going to need 7 hits to hurt it with an OR of 6?
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UmaroVI
post Mar 21 2012, 12:15 AM
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Net hits add to the damage of Powerbolt (and Flamethrower) but not Ignite (net hits have no effect on Ignite).
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Makki
post Mar 21 2012, 07:32 AM
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what if the door was of non-flamable material? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
Why do stones (OR1) burn easier than paper (OR2)?
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Raiki
post Mar 21 2012, 08:25 AM
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QUOTE (Makki @ Mar 21 2012, 03:32 AM) *
what if the door was of non-flamable material? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
Why do stones (OR1) burn easier than paper (OR2)?



Careful, if you keep sticking your fingers in the RAW holes, they might get stuck the next time there's a german stealth-errata published. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)
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Dakka Dakka
post Mar 21 2012, 10:46 AM
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QUOTE (Bearclaw @ Mar 21 2012, 12:31 AM) *
Right on. And the Power bolt would still just do it's 6 points.
force 6 + 6 hits - OR 6 = 6 boxes of damage, right?

Or am I going to need 7 hits to hurt it with an OR of 6?
Unfortunately you do if the target is OR 6. Because someone probably screwed up, spells always need one net hit to succeed, despite the fact that threshold tests generally only need to meet the threshold.

You may want to update your rulebook. OR 6 only exists by GM Fiat. The highest listed OR is 5+ for vehicles etc.
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snowRaven
post Mar 21 2012, 11:46 AM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Mar 21 2012, 11:46 AM) *
Unfortunately you do if the target is OR 6. Because someone probably screwed up, spells always need one net hit to succeed, despite the fact that threshold tests generally only need to meet the threshold.

You may want to update your rulebook. OR 6 only exists by GM Fiat. The highest listed OR is 5+ for vehicles etc.


There are redundancy-mods that increase OR, so values above 5 can be strictly by the books.
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Dakka Dakka
post Mar 21 2012, 12:10 PM
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QUOTE (snowRaven @ Mar 21 2012, 12:46 PM) *
There are redundancy-mods that increase OR, so values above 5 can be strictly by the books.
I forgot about those, where are they again?
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snowRaven
post Mar 21 2012, 12:57 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Mar 21 2012, 01:10 PM) *
I forgot about those, where are they again?


WAR! pg. 175

...though I could've sworn there was something in addition to that one, in another book. Maybe I'm dreaming.
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Dakka Dakka
post Mar 21 2012, 01:02 PM
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This only works on vehicles, not doors and such.
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snowRaven
post Mar 21 2012, 01:04 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Mar 21 2012, 02:02 PM) *
This only works on vehicles, not doors and such.


Yes. The talk was of a cop car, and you mentioned 'vehicles etc'

The door in the original post was quoted at OR 4.
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Bearclaw
post Mar 21 2012, 03:10 PM
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OK, so pg 204 SR4a says:
"Note that nonliving objects resist damage from an Indirect Combat spell with their Armor rating x 2 (see Barriers, p. 166)."

Meaning that the Armor Rating of the car would be effectively 20, not 5, right? Or is there another reference somewhere that contradicts this as well?
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BishopMcQ
post Mar 21 2012, 03:13 PM
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That's for Barriers, which resist with Armor + Armor. Drones and Vehicles resist with Body + Armor.
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Brainpiercing7.6...
post Mar 21 2012, 03:17 PM
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QUOTE (BishopMcQ @ Mar 21 2012, 12:28 AM) *
For Ignite, it follows the normal rules for Fire damage on SR4A p 164-165. It would be resisted with Armor.

Vehicle armor follows rules like Hardened armor--if modified DV does not exceed the modified Armor rating, it does no damage. From your example above, F6 + 6 hits, would be a DV of 12 against Armor 10/2 (because of AP). As 12 > 5, the Flamethrower would deal damage, and it would be soaked with Body + 1/2 Armor or 15 dice.


AFAIK direct spells against objects don't use those hardened armour rules, because they are not resisted with armour. I.e. there is no comparison of whether the damage is converted to stun, and hence the entire hardened armour section cannot be used. [Edit:] Alright, you never said that. Duh.[/edit]

So a powerbolt that exceeds OR will always do Force+net hits damage, no further resistance.

For instance, last session I hit one of my runner's car with an F11 Shatter spell cast by a free spirit which hit the car with two net hits for 13P of damage, destroying it.
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Bearclaw
post Mar 21 2012, 03:30 PM
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QUOTE (BishopMcQ @ Mar 20 2012, 04:28 PM) *
For Ignite, it follows the normal rules for Fire damage on SR4A p 164-165. It would be resisted with Armor.

Vehicle armor follows rules like Hardened armor--if modified DV does not exceed the modified Armor rating, it does no damage. From your example above, F6 + 6 hits, would be a DV of 12 against Armor 10/2 (because of AP). As 12 > 5, the Flamethrower would deal damage, and it would be soaked with Body + 1/2 Armor or 15 dice.



QUOTE (BishopMcQ @ Mar 21 2012, 08:13 AM) *
That's for Barriers, which resist with Armor + Armor. Drones and Vehicles resist with Body + Armor.


I don't mean the resist roll. I mean the amount of hardened armor I need to over-come with a flamethrower spell to damage a car with a body and armor of 10. Your post said 5, but what I read says 20. I like your answer better, but I need a reference.
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