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> Suggestions on dealing with invisibility & mind control
nicktheviking
post Mar 23 2012, 05:00 PM
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I have a player in my group who plays a hermetic mage and is fond of cruising around cloaked in improved invisibility all the time. Pretty much whenever there is a hostile NPC, he uses control thoughts to get the NPC to do his bidding. While a decent strategy, this really puts a damper on the tension and excitement of the campaign, not to mention that he tends to override NPCs which I have planned to divulge interesting information.

Any suggestions what I can do to deter this type of behavior?
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Yerameyahu
post Mar 23 2012, 05:03 PM
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He must be leaving huge trails (especially astral), and there are people a lot more powerful than he is.
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JonathanC
post Mar 23 2012, 05:10 PM
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QUOTE (nicktheviking @ Mar 23 2012, 10:00 AM) *
I have a player in my group who plays a hermetic mage and is fond of cruising around cloaked in improved invisibility all the time. Pretty much whenever there is a hostile NPC, he uses control thoughts to get the NPC to do his bidding. While a decent strategy, this really puts a damper on the tension and excitement of the campaign, not to mention that he tends to override NPCs which I have planned to divulge interesting information.

Any suggestions what I can do to deter this type of behavior?

You could ask him to stop being a dick. I tried this while running a 3rd edition game, and it worked like a charm.


Sustaining mana spells used to keep you active on the astral plane (so did using a sustaining focus); I'm not sure if that's still true, but if it is he's in for a world of hurt from a bunch of things that can see/harm him with impunity, unless he a) is astrally perceiving at all times to see them coming and b) has a good Astral Combat pool.


Or, you know, just send some drones after him.
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VykosDarkSoul
post Mar 23 2012, 05:11 PM
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I have a player who does the invis thing too.

So in theory, a player maintaining Improved Invis would still show up astrally, in fact, very strongly, yes?
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almost normal
post Mar 23 2012, 05:16 PM
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QUOTE (VykosDarkSoul @ Mar 23 2012, 01:11 PM) *
I have a player who does the invis thing too.

So in theory, a player maintaining Improved Invis would still show up astrally, in fact, very strongly, yes?


Yep. It's why dual natured critter guards are zomazing.
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JonathanC
post Mar 23 2012, 05:16 PM
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QUOTE (VykosDarkSoul @ Mar 23 2012, 10:11 AM) *
I have a player who does the invis thing too.

So in theory, a player maintaining Improved Invis would still show up astrally, in fact, very strongly, yes?

Oh, most definitely. Anyone with astral perception would see him immediately (and could target him, either with spells or a gun). Also, keep in mind that any time he passes through a ward there's a chance for the spell to pop, and nearly any secured building is going to be heavily warded.
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almost normal
post Mar 23 2012, 05:17 PM
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QUOTE (JonathanC @ Mar 23 2012, 01:10 PM) *
Or, you know, just send some drones after him.


Drones can rarely see people, nevermind invisible ones.
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JonathanC
post Mar 23 2012, 05:19 PM
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QUOTE (almost normal @ Mar 23 2012, 10:17 AM) *
Drones can rarely see people, nevermind invisible ones.

IIRC, Improved Invisibility isn't effective against ultrasound vision. And drones are immune to mind control.
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VykosDarkSoul
post Mar 23 2012, 05:21 PM
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QUOTE (JonathanC @ Mar 23 2012, 11:16 AM) *
Oh, most definitely. Anyone with astral perception would see him immediately (and could target him, either with spells or a gun). Also, keep in mind that any time he passes through a ward there's a chance for the spell to pop, and nearly any secured building is going to be heavily warded.



So what about a spirit? If it was manifested, would it have to switch back to see him, or does it see in both realms at once?
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thorya
post Mar 23 2012, 05:25 PM
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I outlined some measures I use here-

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=1135793

Also, don't forget to roll for the continuing resistance to control thoughts. He should really only have about a minute of control before he has to cast again.
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JonathanC
post Mar 23 2012, 05:26 PM
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QUOTE (VykosDarkSoul @ Mar 23 2012, 10:21 AM) *
So what about a spirit? If it was manifested, would it have to switch back to see him, or does it see in both realms at once?

A manifested spirit is dual-natured, so it exists on the physical and astral planes at the same time. But keep in mind, the spirit doesn't have to manifest to attack him if he is active on the astral plane.

Again, I'm not sure that this is still the case in 4th edition, but sustaining spells used to keep you visible/active on the astral plane.
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Aria
post Mar 23 2012, 05:30 PM
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Pretty sure that this has been removed in SR4...although perhaps foci can be disrupted?!? Don't think you can ground spells through them any more though.
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Paul
post Mar 23 2012, 05:37 PM
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I'd start by ensuring you're actually running the rules as written-obviously plus or minus any house rules. "Mind Control" spells do not automatically equate to victory. Once you've ensured you're using the appropriate rules or not, then I'd start looking at the opposition. If they've cake walked through a few runs have their employer step up his game-"Gee since you guys are so awesome, have I got a job for you!" Start having the opposition respond to the increased usage of these spells-start slowly, suddenly they notice security people stay behind the one way glass, or the remote gun turrets. Gradually up the pressure until it becomes competitive again. The idea is, of course, to make it a challenge but not smash them for fun. Make use of edge and an opponents will to live. (No one takes a security job to eat a bullet, not even in the Sixth World.)

Thorya's thread has a few decent ideas, and I am sure with a little more information we could help you out. Outline the team, the plot and what you're looking to do. We can then start adding in depth commentary if you'd like. But whatever you do just don't screw the player because you're momentarily stumped on how to adjust the game to his creativeness. There's no quicker way to make the game not fun by doing that.

Smile, chuckle and say "You guys got down! Yup. Now that the cake walk runs are out of the way, time to get into the real nightmare whirlwind of betrayal and danger! Hope you enjoyed your prep time!" Then show'em who Daddy is, and what he does. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ork.gif)
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Yerameyahu
post Mar 23 2012, 05:42 PM
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Don't forget that you guys are referring to a materialized spirit, not manifested. Everyone mixes them up, they're annoyingly similar.
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JonathanC
post Mar 23 2012, 05:43 PM
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QUOTE (Aria @ Mar 23 2012, 10:30 AM) *
Pretty sure that this has been removed in SR4...although perhaps foci can be disrupted?!? Don't think you can ground spells through them any more though.

I'd have to check my books, but you may be right. The spells would still be visible on the astral, though, and spells sustained by sustaining foci still get popped by passing through wards (which, again, are common because any awakened person can make them).
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Warlordtheft
post Mar 23 2012, 06:00 PM
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QUOTE (nicktheviking @ Mar 23 2012, 12:00 PM) *
I have a player in my group who plays a hermetic mage and is fond of cruising around cloaked in improved invisibility all the time. Pretty much whenever there is a hostile NPC, he uses control thoughts to get the NPC to do his bidding. While a decent strategy, this really puts a damper on the tension and excitement of the campaign, not to mention that he tends to override NPCs which I have planned to divulge interesting information.

Any suggestions what I can do to deter this type of behavior?


Have an astral KE mage show up with two force 6 elementals and a watcher and ask him to wait until the KE Occult Investigations Unit comes to check out his liscense and registration. Bad form on his part. Take him back to the precinct, have him interrogated. Later he gets a message from a watcher from said KE mage saying--you owe me, and if I catch you again..

If he is doing it on the run, wards and an astral mage does wonders. He would have to ineffect cast it twice (once on the astral, and once onf the physical to avoid this. Ultrasound on a drone with a taser or LMG if you want also negates invisibility.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Mar 23 2012, 06:21 PM
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QUOTE (almost normal @ Mar 23 2012, 10:17 AM) *
Drones can rarely see people, nevermind invisible ones.


Well, Ultra-Wideband Radar totally ignores Invisibility, even the Improved Version.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Mar 23 2012, 06:21 PM
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QUOTE (thorya @ Mar 23 2012, 10:25 AM) *
I outlined some measures I use here-

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=1135793

Also, don't forget to roll for the continuing resistance to control thoughts. He should really only have about a minute of control before he has to cast again.


It will generally be FAR less than a Minute... Force 6 is every 18 Seconds, after all... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Mar 23 2012, 06:24 PM
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QUOTE (JonathanC @ Mar 23 2012, 10:26 AM) *
A manifested spirit is dual-natured, so it exists on the physical and astral planes at the same time. But keep in mind, the spirit doesn't have to manifest to attack him if he is active on the astral plane.

Again, I'm not sure that this is still the case in 4th edition, but sustaining spells used to keep you visible/active on the astral plane.


You cannot ground spells through a Foci or active spell in 4th Edition. Best you could do is disrupt the foci, or Dispell the Spell.
If you are on the same plane (and Astrally perceiving) you could also Counterspell the Spell (or just shoot the Mage).
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JonathanC
post Mar 23 2012, 07:56 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 23 2012, 09:42 AM) *
Don't forget that you guys are referring to a materialized spirit, not manifested. Everyone mixes them up, they're annoyingly similar.

A spirit doesn't have to manifest OR materialize to attack a mage astrally.


EDIT: In 4th edition, he would have to be astrally perceiving for you to do so, of course.
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Yerameyahu
post Mar 23 2012, 08:41 PM
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That's true, but not what I was talking about. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The comments were talking about materialization, but accidentally calling it manifestation; a common mixup.

The mage in question (wrapped in spells) is indeed visible by anything with astral sense: astral and materialized spirits, astral perceiving/projecting mages, etc.
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JonathanC
post Mar 23 2012, 08:56 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 23 2012, 12:41 PM) *
That's true, but not what I was talking about. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The comments were talking about materialization, but accidentally calling it manifestation; a common mixup.

The mage in question (wrapped in spells) is indeed visible by anything with astral sense: astral and materialized spirits, astral perceiving/projecting mages, etc.

I was referring to my comment (which is what I thought you were referring to). I said manifesting, and I meant it. But I can see what you're talking about now; either way though, his question made sense. A manifesting spirit is still present on the astral, and a materialized spirit is still present on the astral.
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Yerameyahu
post Mar 23 2012, 09:02 PM
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Yes. In both cases, the spirit is using his astral sense, and will see the active spells/foci. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

If he meant 'manifesting', then I retract everything, but I don't see how a manifesting spirit could possibly 'switch back' or 'see in both realms at once', because manifesting grants no physical senses at all (you're still 100% astral).
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JonathanC
post Mar 23 2012, 09:08 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 23 2012, 01:02 PM) *
Yes. In both cases, the spirit is using his astral sense, and will see the active spells/foci. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

If he meant 'manifesting', then I retract everything, but I don't see how a manifesting spirit could possibly 'switch back' or 'see in both realms at once', because manifesting grants no physical senses at all (you're still 100% astral).

Manifesting, as described on p.193, states that you cannot physically interact with anything on the physical plane, but there's nothing to suggest that you are unable to see things on the physical plane. I recall some fluff to that effect in previous editions, but much like attacking someone through their active foci, I don't think it made the transition to 4th. I don't have Street Magic on me, though.
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Yerameyahu
post Mar 23 2012, 09:15 PM
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I'm open to the possibility that I remembered wrong, but I could've sworn this was a key limitation of manifesting (at least in SR4). :/

Re: active foci, I meant to ask earlier: can you attack *them* directly (deactivating them), or is that only for projecting mages? I feel like I recalled something like that.
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