Archery Made Better, A Guide To Urban Hunting Options

[Neraph]

So the reason bows lag behind firearms is primarily due to the difference in rate of fire. Less shots means less damage, especially when you factor the Narrow Bursts that firearms are capable of doing. However, for all you bow enthusiasts out there - remain enthused.

In order to fire a bow you need to Ready the bow with a Simple Action, Ready the arrow with another Simple Action, and then Fire Weapon with a Simple Action - generally this is enough to turn people off to archery altogether (or walk around with a bow out and arrow nocked at all times). Enter Arsenal's Martial Arts.

For 5 BP you can pick up one rank in Krav Maga and take the Advantage that allows you to change Ready Weapon to a Free Action (Arsenal, page 157). Additionally, this allows you to take Maneuvers.

A character with this maneuver may use the Quick Draw rules (p. 127, SR4) to draw any weapon, not just pistols. The character may draw and use a single melee weapon, missile weapon, throwing weapon or firearm of Reach 1 or less with a Simple Action. If attacking with the weapon requires a Complex Action, he may still draw and attack with a Complex Action. He must succeed in an appropriate Weapon Skill + Reaction (3) Test to Quick Draw.

This is what makes it all come together. Now we can have a character with a bow stashed, use Krav Maga to Ready the bow as a Free Action, and then use Quick Draw (either the arrows or the bow - it is unclear which one you need here but it is clear that it is possible) to get the same rate of fire with a bow that can be achieved with a semi-auto firearm. When you further take into account that a Strength 8 bow is a base DV of 10 which can be increased to 15 DV with net successes (and possibly 16 with Exlosive Arrowheads from Arsenal - the bow rules, including prices for arrows, were tweaked in SR4A but did not include any information about tweaking those found in Arsenal) this allows the bow retake its place among its more contemporary ranged weapons.

This means an archer can now fire up to eight times in a Combat Turn, pumping out up to 15P DV per shot. Add to this MRSI software and you can pump out up to 30 DV attacks in one Initiative Pass. At another extreme is a humanoid drone with a rigger that has both Sinsense Accelerator and Simsense Booster getting these same results at 5 IP.

tl:dr = bows are still very competitive.

[JonathanC]

Hmm. I'm thinking you'd have to quick-draw the arrows (one quick draw roll for each shot), since you're basically doing the Legolas rapid-reload trick. But yeah, I see no reason not to allow this.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Except that a Bow is not a weapon allowed by Iaijutsu...

Here is the Quote...

A character with this maneuver may use the Quick Draw rules (p. 137, SR4) to draw any weapon, not just pistols. The character may draw and use a single melee weapon, missile weapon, throwing weapon or firearm of Reach 1 or less with a Simple Action.

A Bow is none of those, it is a Projectile Weapon. So, by dint of RAW, a character skilled in Iaijutsu cannot apply it to the Bow at all. I guess you could argue that a Bow is a Missile Weapon, but by definition it is not. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[thorya]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/missile

Guess it depends upon whose definition you use. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranged_weapon

[Xenefungus]

Plus, this is nothing new. I would in fact guess that suggestion came up in every single bow thread ever.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Plus, this is nothing new. I would in fact guess that suggestion came up in every single bow thread ever.

Indeed... I have seen it a time or two over the years... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stahlseele]

Except that a Bow is not a weapon allowed by Iaijutsu...

Here is the Quote...



A Bow is none of those, it is a Projectile Weapon. So, by dint of RAW, a character skilled in Iaijutsu cannot apply it to the Bow at all. I guess you could argue that a Bow is a Missile Weapon, but by definition it is not. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bigger Problem:
"Reach 1 or less with a Simple Action"

[Xenefungus]

Non melee weapons don't have a single Reach attribute at the start you mean?

[Stahlseele]

exactly.

[VykosDarkSoul]

How about the adept quick draw ability, or nimble fingers?

[Stahlseele]

That would probably work a bit better, depending on how those are described . .
But then you are using magic again. Which is blatantly cheating everything/everyone else.

[JonathanC]

Except that a Bow is not a weapon allowed by Iaijutsu...

Here is the Quote...



A Bow is none of those, it is a Projectile Weapon. So, by dint of RAW, a character skilled in Iaijutsu cannot apply it to the Bow at all. I guess you could argue that a Bow is a Missile Weapon, but by definition it is not. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Are we sure they intended to say "missile weapon"? I can't think of any Missile Weapons in Shadowrun off the top of my head; missile launches are considered "heavy weapons", aren't they?

[VykosDarkSoul]

Are we sure they intended to say "missile weapon"? I can't think of any Missile Weapons in Shadowrun off the top of my head; missile launches are considered "heavy weapons", aren't they?

Missle Weapon refers to a thrown missle, i.e. Throwing Daggers, Javalin, etc.


Edit: however, since they list both, it IS a little bit of a redundent description.

[JonathanC]

Missle Weapon refers to a thrown missle, i.e. Throwing Daggers, Javalin, etc.

But the book already lists "throwing weapons" separately. Why would it list them twice? Any way you look at it, this is some kind of an editing error, and until there's errata it's up to a GM to decide what they'd allow at their table.

If you're comfortable with rapid-fire throwing knives, there isn't much reason to disallow Trogolas, Seattle's greatest archer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[VykosDarkSoul]

I would have to agree,

Oh and

missile (n)
1 any object or weapon that is thrown at a target or shot from an engine, gun, etc.

2 a rocket-propelled weapon that flies either in a fixed trajectory (ballistic missile) or in a trajectory that can be controlled during flight (guided missile)

so...yeah....just about ANY weapon in SR is or can be a missle weapon...even a Metahuman Body! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Jhaiisiin]

The previous sentence mentions "any weapon", so there's a contradiction right there.

[JonathanC]

I really want someone to stat up Trogolas now. May have to try when I get home.




"Trogolas! What do your Troll-eyes see?"

[VykosDarkSoul]

I really want someone to stat up Trogolas now. May have to try when I get home.




"Trogolas! What do your Troll-eyes see?"

LOL...okay...but you have to make him an adept, and give him the power that lets him walk on snow...MUAHAH...but make sure to get bone density aug as well...so you can be a 2 ton troll that can walk on snow!

[Kolinho]

Except that a Bow is not a weapon allowed by Iaijutsu...

Here is the Quote...



A Bow is none of those, it is a Projectile Weapon. So, by dint of RAW, a character skilled in Iaijutsu cannot apply it to the Bow at all. I guess you could argue that a Bow is a Missile Weapon, but by definition it is not. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Then by the same token you could argue it only requires one simple action to ready a bow and arrow...

A character may ready a weapon by spending a Simple Action. The weapon may be a firearm, melee weapon, throwing weapon, ranged weapon, or mounted or vehicular weapon. Readying entails drawing a firearm from a holster, drawing a throwing or melee weapon from a sheath, picking up any kind of weapon, nocking an arrow in a bow, or generally preparing any kind of weapon for use. A weapon must be ready before it can be used.

... as projectile weapon is not listed there.

I had never given it any thought before, as none of my characters have thought about a bow and arrow character. Having read it, I would have thought to keep it at least half way fair, I'd have thought a bow and arrow can be readied with a simple action. But that it requires a simple action to reload. That's how I would have ruled it without reading up on it. As it turns, that's not a million miles away from the RAW.

The Krav Maga idea is neat, but if any character came at me wanting to use that particular Martial Art with a bow, i'd have them wear the munchkin hat at our next session. There are variants in the book, and I'd have no problem with them making up their own Art. Martial arts should be at least 50% fluff, not all about the stats.

[JonathanC]

It has long been my dream to adapt The Fellowship of the Ring to Shadowrun. Sadly, Lofwyr hasn't forged any magic rings, that I know of...the rest of it writes itself though. Gandalf the Immortal Elf, Gollum and his HMHVV, Boromir is obviously a Street Samurai....Frodo, Merry, Pippin, and Sam would, ideally, be a circle of hackers from the Plastic Jungles in Redmond.

[Stahlseele]

LOL...okay...but you have to make him an adept, and give him the power that lets him walk on snow...MUAHAH...but make sure to get bone density aug as well...so you can be a 2 ton troll that can walk on snow!

Trogolas is, actually, a more viable concept than Elfolas . .
Was more viable, of course, before they nerfed arrows all to hell . .

Also: yes, you can have the 1t Troll walk over Snow using the traceless walk power. And giving him some jumping capabilities and gecko grip stuff will let him get up on good sniping positions.

[JonathanC]

Then by the same token you could argue it only requires one simple action to ready a bow and arrow...



... as projectile weapon is not listed there.

I had never given it any thought before, as none of my characters have thought about a bow and arrow character. Having read it, I would have thought to keep it at least half way fair, I'd have thought a bow and arrow can be readied with a simple action. But that it requires a simple action to reload. That's how I would have ruled it without reading up on it. As it turns, that's not a million miles away from the RAW.

The Krav Maga idea is neat, but if any character came at me wanting to use that particular Martial Art with a bow, i'd have them wear the munchkin hat at our next session. There are variants in the book, and I'd have no problem with them making up their own Art. Martial arts should be at least 50% fluff, not all about the stats.

Each of the Martial Arts in the book is listed as being one of many options that would be mechanically identical. They could get the Iaijutsu manuever from any martial art, so I wouldn't bother busting their balls about it. Could be some elven Krav Maga dojo, or something.

[Kolinho]

The previous sentence mentions "any weapon", so there's a contradiction right there.

Indeed, that too.

'Shadowrun in ambiguous RAW shocker' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

I really want someone to stat up Trogolas now. May have to try when I get home.




"Trogolas! What do your Troll-eyes see?"

Do it, do it! Upload for us all to see (and totally yoink for our campaigns...) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

[Kolinho]

Each of the Martial Arts in the book is listed as being one of many options that would be mechanically identical. They could get the Iaijutsu manuever from any martial art, so I wouldn't bother busting their balls about it. Could be some elven Krav Maga dojo, or something.

Indeed, I put in the same category as a Barrens Ork with two Ninjitsu manoeuvres though. Hard to justify, and completely unnecessary when there are other options if they actually read the passage rather than just the bonuses.

I have a huge chip on my shoulder about reverse-built characters (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[JonathanC]

Indeed, I put in the same category as a Barrens Ork with two Ninjitsu manoeuvres though. Hard to justify, and completely unnecessary when there are other options if they actually read the passage rather than just the bonuses.

I have a huge chip on my shoulder about reverse-built characters (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

For me, it's all about how cheesy it is, how disruptively the player uses that cheese, and how they actually explain it. A true munchkin has an utterly ridiculous background that they barely define and never refer to, and they use their enormous dice pool as a cudgel against any attempt by the GM to provide plot or challenge in the game. As a result, other players get no chances to shine, and the GM is frustrated. I used to react to this by attempting to out-cheese them, but I've grown lazy/wise with age, so now I just ask the player to not be a dick.

An ork barrens ninja could imply a lot: an old Japanese man with a past he never talks about, keeping his head down and living among the orks of Redmond as a hermit. He finds a wiry young ork, bullied by his larger peers. He offers the boy the tools to gain revenge on his tormentors. The boy learns quickly, he grows in skill, he lays his childhood tormentors low, then realizes how childish his aims had been. He looks out of the ghetto he was raised in, and sees a world of opportunity opened up by his new skillset, but he never forgets the old man.


Then, one day, the old man comes to see him. It's been years, and the boy, now a man, sees a glint in the old man's eyes that wasn't there before. He has come to collect a favor owed to him by the boy; a debt of honor. He slides an old piece of smartpaper across the table; it bears the image of a Japanese man of similar age to himself. He asks the boy for that he once gave him: revenge.


That, I think, would be well worth any ork-ninja cheese a player could come up with. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)