Milspec versus normal armor, More armor than heavy milspec possible? Options

[toturi]

I thought I recalled a discussion where someone had mooted the idea that it was possible to assemble a collection of normal armor that provided more protection than milspec assault armor. I am unable to find the thread at present (perhaps I read it over at the official SR forums).

We had a windfall and the GM lifted the availability cap in exchange for an exorbitant markup. So my character got himself an assault milspec armor with all the trimmings. However, during a session recently, I was surprised to find that another character was able to get higher armor than mine using normal armor alone. It was in the middle of the session, the other player's explanation seemed plausible, so I did not want to derail the game to check the rules.

Does anyone recall that thread or is my memory playing tricks with me? Alternately has anyone come up with a combination of armor pieces that can provide more armor than heavy milspec?

[KarmaInferno]

Steampunk outfit from Arsenal + Delta-Amyloid Coating from Attitude = 10 / 8
Form-Fitting under-armor from Arsenal = +6 / +2
PPP armor from Arsenal = +2 / +6

Total = 18 Ballistic / 16 impact, encumbers as 15 / 15.

If Encumbrance is a problem, Softweave from WAR can help.

Other armor sources that stack: Cyber Armor, adept 'Mystic Armor' power, 'Armor' spell.

'Increase Attribute', 'Combat Sense' and 'Deflection' spells help indirectly.



-k

[Yerameyahu]

I thought all you had to do was take SWAT and add PPP? Something simple like that. Why would you want to? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Neraph]

With the proper cyberlimbs you can get 24/24 armor nekkid. Or something like that. If you really want I can sick Ragewind on this thread...

[Yerameyahu]

OP seems to be asking about worn armor.

[Neraph]

Not exclusively. Gimme some time to number crunch.

EDIT:

Strength 2 - 10 BP
R2 Muscle Augmentation - 14,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
Softweave Armor Jacket - 990 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
Softweave full PPP - 1,100 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
Softweave FFBA Full Suit - 1,760 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
Softweave Helmet - 110 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

17(9)/16(9)

With cyberware it goes up (R2 Dermal Plating or R3 Orthoskin from chargen). You can also put Gel Packs in eight pieces. Metatype matters, as a SURGE'd troll with extra bone bits can get a natural something like 3/3 armor on top of all that. And I'm not even trying that hard.

[Manunancy]

Even if it's rule-legal, adding softweave to the PPP (which fluff-wise is hard* armor) and even worse to a helmet seems ludicrous. A soft helmet doesn't sounds like it should be that effective as an impact armor..

* hard as in 'made with hard, rigid material', the similarity with 'hardened' is only in semantics.

[Glyph]

Other armor suits, unlike military-grade armor, can stack with riot shields, gel packs, PPP, and FFBA. The main advantages of military-grade armor are that it is hardened armor, and that you can get some very useful special modifications for it.

[Thanee]

Is military-grade armor still hardened? I thought that wasn't so in SR4.

Bye
Thanee

[UmaroVI]

I'm going to assume your group does not allow the "I can totally softweave multiple pieces of armor!111" option which lets you get infinity armor, and does not allow shenanigans like stacking PPP with MilSpec, attaching PPP to FFBA and halving the encumbrance of the PPP, or other silly stuff like that.

In that case, the answer is that for people with sufficiently low BODY and Strength (the cutoff being 4xBody+Strength > 30), MilSpec is indeed the best you can do because of the encumbrance divided by 3 thing and the ignore encumbrance mod.

For people with high body, MilSpec isn't very good because of the lockout. You can't get better than 18/16, so if you have 4xBody+Strength > 30, you can do better by stacking up other armor types. The typical setup is going to be some variant of:

SWAT Armour+Helmet
FFBA
PPP
Moonsilver Line Scarf with a Weave (Attitude)
Quizzel Fairy/Dragon wings with a different Weave (Attitude)
Ballistic Mask (War!)

I'm also assuming you can't stack multiple copies of the same weave on a single character, or put multiple weaves on one piece of armor, although those are less gamebreaking and lead more to "look less silly while wearing the same amount of armor" than "olol broken."

[Thanee]

I totally think a Moonsilver Line Scarf looks absolutely snazzy on SWAT Armor. For the fashion-sensitive SWAT'ers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[UmaroVI]

Why you hating on the Tactical Neck Insulator?

[Thanee]

No hating there. I just think it makes for a rather funny picture.

Quizzel Fairy/Dragon wings with a different Weave (Attitude)

What are these Quizzel wings, BTW?

With Weave you mean the Armor options on Attitude p. 160, right?

Bye
Thanee

[UmaroVI]

Yes, those weaves.

Quizzel fairy/dragon wings are also in Attitude. They are a +1/+1 accessory.

[Dakka Dakka]

With the proper cyberlimbs you can get 24/24 armor nekkid. Or something like that. If you really want I can sick Ragewind on this thread...

This would give you a pretty big head (Bulk mod 2 there). Normally 22/22 is the maximum.

Is military-grade armor still hardened? I thought that wasn't so in SR4.

It still is. It's vehicle armor that is not de jure hardened but since vehicles lack a stun track, it de facto is. Interestingly bullet resistant glass does not help people if it is installed in a vehicle. Contrary to normal barriers, the vehicle armor is still penetrated even if the attack's DV does not exceed the vehicle's armor. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

P.S. The Tactical Neck Insulator made me laugh. For the less fashion conscious isn't there a stackable balaclava somewhere?

[UmaroVI]

I don't think MilSpec is Hardened Armor. It does stop 0 DV attacks like darts, but that's not Hardened Armor.

Edit: the balaclava you are thinking of is probably the Ballistic Mask I mentioned.

[Shortstraw]

I can find a section about darts and such not being able to penetrate military armour but where is the section about it being hardened?

[Dakka Dakka]

you are right. I was mistaken.

[ZeroPoint]

I'm going to assume your group does not allow the "I can totally softweave multiple pieces of armor!111" option which lets you get infinity armor, and does not allow shenanigans like stacking PPP with MilSpec, attaching PPP to FFBA and halving the encumbrance of the PPP, or other silly stuff like that.

In that case, the answer is that for people with sufficiently low BODY and Strength (the cutoff being 4xBody+Strength > 30), MilSpec is indeed the best you can do because of the encumbrance divided by 3 thing and the ignore encumbrance mod.

For people with high body, MilSpec isn't very good because of the lockout. You can't get better than 18/16, so if you have 4xBody+Strength > 30, you can do better by stacking up other armor types. The typical setup is going to be some variant of:

SWAT Armour+Helmet
FFBA
PPP
Moonsilver Line Scarf with a Weave (Attitude)
Quizzel Fairy/Dragon wings with a different Weave (Attitude)
Ballistic Mask (War!)

I'm also assuming you can't stack multiple copies of the same weave on a single character, or put multiple weaves on one piece of armor, although those are less gamebreaking and lead more to "look less silly while wearing the same amount of armor" than "olol broken."

Remember, that even if you have high body/strength, MilSpec may still be better because of the special add-ons that require milspec. For example, if your already at your augmented strength cap, Milspec armor strength add-on can take you above that. I don't have the books in front of me, but i believe you can get things like built in gyro-stabalizers and automated shoulder guns...thats always sweet right?

[Thanee]

Yes, those weaves.

Quizzel fairy/dragon wings are also in Attitude. They are a +1/+1 accessory.

Aha! Found them now under Steampunk Gear. Thanks! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[UmaroVI]

Remember, that even if you have high body/strength, MilSpec may still be better because of the special add-ons that require milspec. For example, if your already at your augmented strength cap, Milspec armor strength add-on can take you above that. I don't have the books in front of me, but i believe you can get things like built in gyro-stabalizers and automated shoulder guns...thats always sweet right?

You can get nifty things, yes. The highlights are:

Mounted weapons that have built-in pilot programs and can fire themselves. This is alright, but not really that great because you could also just get a drone to do this.

Foot Anchors that give you extra recoil compensation. This is really good if you don't have cyberlegs with foot anchors already.

Gyromount that works like a Cyberarm Gyromount. This is also really good if you don't have a cyberarm with a gyromount already.

The mobility upgrade is part of what lets relatively weak people wear MilSpec and is of course good. It's not a reason to take milspec if you have enough body to wear heavier armor, though.

Strength Upgrade is one of very few ways to break augmented maxima on Strength. Strength is of marginal value for most people but for some characters this is worth it.

What it comes down to is that it really depends how much armor you're giving up and what you're getting for it that you wouldn't have anyways. Is it worth giving up 10 points of armor for +3 strength? Probably not. Is it worth giving up 2 points of armor for 5 recoil compensation? Yeah, most likely it is.

[Warlordtheft]

And the final question is how much of it can I wear before KE or LS start forcefully asking questions such as why do you neeed that much armor. Do you think that this is some kind of warzone. Of course in Lagos, Bogata and certain lawless locales this is a non issue. But in those sam locales you'll draw the attention of other interested parties.

Question, how often do you bring up being over armored as an out of place thing?

[Neraph]

Question, how often do you bring up being over armored as an out of place thing?

There is such a thing as being over armored?

But seriously, I don't actually abuse the armor system in-game. My mage has a 4 Body and 10/8 armor that counts as 8/7 IIRC; a couple pieces of PPP, some FFBA, and an Armor Vest - just enough to make me competitive. Someone was making a troll street samurai for the same group and through cyberware, PPP, and armor he ended up with 19/18 armor on 10 Body and the GM started getting upset though. I mentioned how he could actually go much higher, or how just sitting in a vehicle can get you near 40 armor without anything else, but that didn't seem to help.

[Dakka Dakka]

In Lagos or Bogotá Milspec will probably be the only option for armor. Only MilSpec comes with a cooling system. Full Body Armor and SWAT Armor may be allowed to get such an upgrade.

[Draco18s]

There is such a thing as being over armored?

But seriously, I don't actually abuse the armor system in-game. My mage has a 4 Body and 10/8 armor that counts as 8/7 IIRC; a couple pieces of PPP, some FFBA, and an Armor Vest - just enough to make me competitive. Someone was making a troll street samurai for the same group and through cyberware, PPP, and armor he ended up with 19/18 armor on 10 Body and the GM started getting upset though. I mentioned how he could actually go much higher, or how just sitting in a vehicle can get you near 40 armor without anything else, but that didn't seem to help.

Can the troll hug a suicide bomber and take no damage?

No.

I was in a game where one could.
(NPC was seeing that nothing was effecting him, so he pulled a grenades (or was it two?), flipped the pin(s), and ran in close suicide bomber style. The troll gave him a hug and resisted every point of damage).