Shadowrunning in 2009, Techy time-travel to stop lone eagle Options

[Thistledown]

Ok, my standard group is trying out a new GM, (giving me a break), but he and I are working togather a lot out of character to make sure things go well. So, thought I'd ask for some advice here.

We know there is no magical time-travel in shadowrun, so he had a group set up a technological means of going to the past. The group's goal is to change the results of the "Lone Eagle Incident," which is what had a huge part in the Native Americans rallying so much and eventually led to the NAN's. The group want's to stop this. (Group is loosely based off the New Revolution in Threats2)

The head scientist for this group is working against her will, but manages to get a shadowrun team (us) to break into the facility, and use the same machine to go back and make sure the incident happens the way it did before.

Ok, it would have been nice for the scientist to give us a bit more info before we get to the facility, because now we can't leave until after the timeline is fixed. But anyway, we go back to Montana in 2009 about 3 weeks before the incident is scheduled.

For the magic characters, we basically called it a mana warp with a background count of 7. We also let metahumans keep their meta-ness, although disguises are needed for some. The party is also hiding any cyberware, etc.

He and I have even stranger things planned for later, where I might have more questions, but for now, I have only a few.

1. Two of the characters are interested in using knowledge of the stock market, etc. to earn money for our characters over the 55 years between then and ... now (2064). The GM told the players that they would be docked karma for messing with time like that, which the players have agreed to. My question here is, would it be possible to give a stock broker (or firm) a script of stocks to buy and sell at certain points in the next 50 years, and not need any contact with him for 50 years or so? They want to avoid knowing about any of this beforehand to avoid time-problems, so the broker would be told not to try and contact until later in 2064. Also, if this does work, what kind of complications would arrise from starting with about 10k and withdrawing it in the mucho bucks range later?

2. Questions of availability. If you wanted to get a hold of something, say, Heavy Military Armor, and told somebody that if they find one in that timespan, to hold unto it until 2064 for you, would you have to deal with availability, street index, etc? One of the characters has a contact who is old enough for this to work, but there's also the question of price for this kind of thing.

Any other ideas you have could be helpful to.

[mfb]

well, heavy military armor probably won't exist in 2009. at best, i'd call the "spider-man suit" that's being developed a light security armor, and it'll still be prototypical in '09.

as far as stock market stuff, what are they going to invest with? the nuyen doesn't exist yet, UCAS money is no good since that country hasn't been formed (or, rather, unformed)--what're they using for capital?

[Digital Heroin]

1. mfb brings up the perfect point. Unless they intend on robbing a bank, or otherwise stealing ten grand, their money is no good in '09. That right there should keep them from polluting the timeline through stock manipulation. Not to mention, unless they have an insane ranking in Corporate History, they won't likely know which key companies to invest in. After all, going to a stockbroker and saying: `When the megacorps come around, I'd like you to buy Ares.` is likely going to have him questioning one's sanity.

2. First off, the runner may know the contact in 2064, but he doesn't know him in 2009, and visa versa. They'd have a pretty hard time convincing the guy they knew him in the future, and there's the issue of tracking down where he lived back then too. Contacts don't tend to tell you their life story after all, and even then they don't detail adresses. Asuming they do talk to him/her, and down the line the contact actually remembers to get ahold of the armor and to keeps it for them, yes they'd have to deal with street index in the like, since the contact's still got to make it worth their while. Hell, I'd even tack on more simply because they'd have gone to the effort of holding on to it. Even then, that'd better not be a level one contact, because why would they care?

[mfb]

not to mention, contacting someone in 2009 that you know in 2064 is a great way to set yourself up to be extracted by every corp in existence. what are the chances that your contact isn't going to open his fat mouth, at some point, and reveal the fact that he knows some people who've travelled through time? combined with the high-level rumors that will be flying around about the subject, that's easily enough for some corp to kidnap them on a whim. and, once that corp discovers that it's true? fat chance of them ever seeing daylight again.

[Voran]

Here are my thoughts.

1. I imagine the stockmarket would be a bit harder to manage between 2009 and 2064. The big old crash in 2029 and probably the evolution of corporate structure between 2009 and 2064 is so convoluted that it'd be hard to figure out which companies are shells of each other, etc. Plus there's no way to ensure that sweet nest egg account isn't snatched by some decker before you get to return to 2064 to harvest it. Sure the runners might have an idea on which stocks to invest, but what about which banks to keep their money in? What if they pick a bank that goes belly up during the crash, or gets absorbed into one of the splintering nations? Plus how do they know the broker/brokerage they're planning on working through, is honest? Oops, sorry guys, seems in 2061 your broker skipped off to the carribean league with all your cash.

2. I'd suggest using SOTA type guidelines. It would seem (I'm guessing based on reading various descriptions in sourcebooks), that armor has changed quite a bit up through 2064. There's no guarantee that heavy military armor from 2009 is worth using in 2064. Its electronics and imaging systems, etc not to mention its B/I ratings are probably not as good as 2064.

As for the characters having a contact old enough to be the mule over 50+ years, there's also no guarantee that that particular contact remains a contact when the PCs return to their original time line. Oops sorry guys, see when you started this contact off on holding high tech/restricted goods back in 2009, after you left he decided to become a fixer and deal even more in tech/restricted goods. He was prosperous, but about 20 years ago, he ticked off the wrong guys, and he's been dead since then.



Now, I may be fairly stingy I guess. But if the various time travel movies of our day are an indication, when you go back in time, and try to be selfish, it always ends badly. But when you go back in time, and try to do the right thing, being a little selfless instead of selfish, some good things seem to be waiting for you when you return to the present day.


Other thoughts, elves, humans and dwarves probably won't have too much of a problem. It would take a real keen eye to notice the 2064 dwarves aren't the 'midgets' of 'today'. Elves can cover their ears, ala Spock. Orks and trolls are in big trouble though. Btw I know you're letting the runners keep their cybergear, but do they get to take 2064 gear back into the past? Or do they show up naked like the Governator.

[Voran]

Yknow the more I think about this, the more I get ideas about this being a really cool adventure setting.

Awakened types may have to deal with reduced magic effectiveness since mana hadn't gotten to the levels of 2064 back in 2009.

Cybertypes might be hotstuff, but they'd better be very very cautious, even more than they are in 2064 about getting hurt. They get hurt, or worse, take a cyberhit in combat, and they're not getting any worthwhile repairs or healing until they return to their timeline.

If you let them take gear back in time, that could lead to whacky possibilities if they lose some of it. Oops, you dropped an Ares Predator 3 with smartlink 2 technology, back in 2009? Better hope it got destroyed, or I wonder what weapons-tech looks like in 2064.

Lotsa fun possibilities. I'd enjoy the run for paranoia sake itself. I'd be so concerned about screwing things up for my return trip that I'd be even more nervous on the run back in time, than I would in 2064. :)

[Digital Heroin]

The golden rule of Time Travel ™:

Do not, for the love of God, have sex with anyone. Otherwise, you may just end up your own grandfather.

[Arethusa]

I'd like to point out that if you find a contact you know in 2064 and go and talk to him in 2009 to hold onto something, you know he will survive to 2064 and operate in his chosen profession, as the future you knew is what will transpire as a result of anything you will do in the past. Which, of course, raises many deep and extremely unavoidable philosophical questions pertaining to free will. This shit dramatically alters the game and the world, and it is something I suggest you stay away from unless you'd like to shut your brain off for the duration of the run. Causailty is not something to be fucked with. Best to simply rule that time travel is impossible until further notice.

[Voran]

[Arethusa]

See? Now you're getting it! Of course, since the present is what they remember it as, it's essentially impossible to send someone back in time to change something but it is possible to send them back in time to stop someone from attempting to change something, which makes your running group destined for success. But let's stay simple with this one invaluable temporal imperitive:

DO NOT FUCK AROUND WITH TIME TRAVEL

[cykotek]

Step 1: Time travel. Make sure the GM determines determinism vs non-determinism. Basically, is the future mutable, or is anything you do beyond "fixing" the timeline merely "what was supposed to happen". Then, during the game, make sure everyone is at least 3 fingers into a good hit of Jack Daniels. Alcohol makes time travel easier on everyone.

Step 2: As has already been raised, their money is no good. Most of their "cash" is electronic, anyway. No good there. Most of their hard currency (assuming they came from Seattle) is going to be nuyen. Also useless. Same with any form of corp scrip and the like.

But what about UCAS dollars, you ask? They're UCAS dollars. Minted 50 years in the future. Same with bearer bonds, etc. And nobody is going to take a "no, really. These will be worth thousands in 50 years, just spot me enough to play the market" kind of deal. Not when it's some crackpot offering monopoly money.

Assuming they decide to rob a bank or something (not too hard if they take a little bit of planning time), ask them what they're corporate history and stock market history knowledge skills are. Sure, they know the Nanosecond Buyout might be a good place to make some cash. Do you remember the exact 15 minute span? Not to mention when in that pattern you buy what, from who, and sell what? Anything less famous than that (or similar events, i.e., Novatech/Fuchi, etc), they'll have no idea. Not to mention convincing a broker to follow a 55-year plan that includes exact business names (of businesses that don't exist), and exact times and dates to buy/sell.

If they really want to play the market, they'll need to find a slightly shady broker willing to make an account for them (without any form of US Social Security #, or other identity at all). Hand said broker a wad o' cash, and tell him "I want this to be used for a long-term investment with maximum cash payout in 55 years" and pray. And then hope that account survives the Crash.

Step 3: Can they find their contact? They have no form of operation back-up in this time. They've got to do it all by themselves. Do they know his real name? Or is he just "Vinnie, my gun dealer"? If they've found him, can they convince him to follow on this crazy plan of thiers? Remember, he's not a contact. To him, the runners are strangers, new faces. How much money are you willing to pay him for this (see money issue above)? As was mentioned above, almost anything he procures is going to be woefully behind the SOTA, and hence, nigh useless by 2064. Think about how useless WWII anti-tank weaponry is against an M1A1. If they convince him to follow along, he's got it (barring mitigating circumstances, like forced relocation, robberies, arrests, etc).

If they can convince him (more $) to try to look only after 2063 or something. Then, does he remember to do it? Or does he just take the money and run? What is his response when they show up in his shop, looking unchanged in 55 years?

My suggestions: Assuming they make no stock market research, let them find a broker willing to take on a long-term investment that includes no client contact. If they do research, convince them of the futility of their attempt (preferably through roleplaying), then suggest the above solution. Find out how much they want to invest, and then make up a number the GM is willing to give out that seems a good reward. Don't bone the players, but there is a global computer crash, as well as a complete revalueing of most major currencies around the world between past and present.

As for equipment, if they can manage to find and RP their way into their contact's good graces, play it based on their plan and what they want. If they're telling him to get ahold of Heavy Military armor, he's got a suit of impressive looking 3/3 for them when they return and convince him to fork it over. If they want him to wait 50+ years, then start looking, well, lots of things can go wrong in half a century.

[Mimick]

Screw investment, it's too iffy, what you need is to get ahold of some gold that you can stash somewhere safe. No guarantees here either, and a whole new set of problems, but it's better than taking all those ridiculous chances with currency that you know will crash, a government that you know will go under, and corporations that you know are gonna be bad news. Of course, some advance knowledge (you're from the effing future, after all), decent technology (better weapons, ECM and ECCM, explosives, ruthenium, etc.) and tactics, and a heist is looking more and more viable. Though computer systems could pose a problem...

As for contact with people from the past...what, are you insane? The less the better. If you somehow get rich off the whole debacle, then just buy the stuff in the future.

I'll have to contemplate this more...bah, I need to stop drinking 8 cups of coffee a night.

[nezumi]

What I'd say would be safest for them to make money is cruise through the penny saver a few times, pick up an old 286 or something older for all of free (or just short of), put it somewhere safe for fifty years, then sell it as an antique. How many deckers would pay how much for a functioning 1984 286 in 2060? And how much would they pay for one in 2009? (I have one, trust me, not much).

Yes, investing in anything like the stock market isn't just difficult, its dangerous, thanks to causality. If you make millions of dollars, that money came from SOMEWHERE, it doesn't just appear from the Stock Market machine. The entire economy changes ever so slightly... those little changes accumulate over fifty years and who's sure where you'll end up? Its safer to try and make money by virtue of having a time capsule. Find stuff thats worthless now, and no one will miss (and will be junked by 2063), and save it for yourself. Its a much lower profit, but its much safer.

Also, don't forget that anyone with cyber will show up on metal detectors. In 2063, they depend on cyber detectors that'll catalog everything, and metal detectors are just about worthless because EVERYONE has a datajack. Not the case in 2009. EVERY business of note and EVERY government security will wand them, most will have an issue with them, some will tell them to leave and a few will do fun cavity searches (so much for those costumes...)

Edit: Oh! Idea... Someone mentioned how, if they fixed the event, in the future they wouldn't be hired to fix the event because it had already been fixed, so they'd have no memory of said event *eyes cross*. What if they go back in time to fix the event, find someone else from the future who's there to stop them from fixing the event, then find themselves ALREADY there, fixing the event. The plot is that they have already gone to fix the event, succeeded, forgot, the new guy went back to stop them and succeeded, necessitated their being hired to fix the event again (unknown to them, for the second time). Hijinks ensue!! The point will be very well made that they will not remember anything when they get back home.

[Seven Deadly SIN...]

One question about this whole time travel thing? Are the runners sure they can make it back? They may be stuck in 2009 with no way back to the future. Especially if they get greedy and start causing things to change.

[TinkerGnome]

Geeze, don't you guys watch movies?

The ways to make boat loads of cash are simple. You can use the Back to the Future method (sports betting) or the Start Trek method (selling inventions).

I'd be on the watch for both of those. I good historical record of horse racing and a while at the track could turn pocket change into a big payday. Then you just convert it into something saleable in the future, and there you go.

[shadd4d]

You still have the problem of seed funds. Yes they could rob a bank, but then you've got serial numbers floating around the local area, which is a bad idea if 1) that's where their mission is, 2) they get caught with stolen goods.

How do they have this information though? Lots of info got lost in the crash (look at the speculation as to the cost of the harris spacestation in corporate shadowfiles for an example). Unless they found a sport's almanac in the future, they'd be stuck trying to bet.

Getting stuck would be high on my worry list; remember how it pained Marty in the first Back to the Future.

Don

[TinkerGnome]

Well, if the PCs want to do either, they'd have to plan ahead. since 1 MP is a friggin' huge chunk of memory, you could cram enough sports history into your average headware to last you a good long while (or on a datasoft, provided you were afraid you'd get erased during travel). Seed money is no problem, if you always win. Mow someone's lawn and you're set ;) Same thing with technical stuff.

While the "lost in the crash" thing works for a lot of stuff, which might make it challenging to aquire, but I'm sure enough sports history survived to make the PCs rich if they get the idea into their heads.

The trick, I guess, is to offer the PCs a big enough carrot for not messing with the timeline that they don't get tempted too much. Or make it clear that messing with the timeline will be bad for them in a rather final way.

[Panzergeist]

You would obviously want to convert your money into gold or something like that before going back in time.

[The White Dwarf]

Its not even hard to just get seed money while there, for two reasons:

One, you have the biggest technical advanatage ever on two fronts.
a) you have gear 60 years ahead of the secruity its bypassing
b) you have magic.... yea
Only possible issue is the computer system not being the Matrix. Except, youll recall that in the front of SR3 they talk about how when decking was devloped to fight the Crash conventional computers "had no defense". If you can jury-rig a datajack to computer connection Id say you auto win.

Two, you can take out loans from loan sharks, and you can surly find one of those with your shadow background. They wont ask questions, and you wont be there to pay them back. Done and done.

Now you just invest in gold, silver, mercury, etc etc etc flash forward in time with it and make orichalcum on a big scale. Yay cash.

p.s.- Availability on anything SR timeline is pretty much zero. Even basic bullets are no longer good because of the changes in caseless ammo (according to canon not logic here) that is the default for SR-era firearms. While they can make all the cash they want, theyre sol on getting gear.

[TinkerGnome]

Damn, I wish I hadn't just started a different game up or I'd try running this one on the forums ;)

[Siege]

Terminator 2 -- just sketch out the basics for a nerd and show them a working model. Or if a PC takes a hit and his body ends up...somewhere.

There are so many possibilities -- not to mention, it could be the springboard for so much of the weirdness that happens. VITAS happened because it was brought back from a time where relative immunities existed?

One skillchip with any cybertech knowledge skill would be a massive tech leap for any company that manages to get it and decipher it. Or uses the PC as a human translator until they can crack the tech themselves.

-Siege

[Lantzer]

A couple of notes on time travel:

1) Its your game, chummer. If you want it, you can do it.

2) Sure they can play the market/ponies/whatever! They just need to make sure they have appropriate types of money available with them, they set everthing up right, and pay the Karma as the GM suggested - and they get free money when they get back equal to the conversion rate for 'cash for karma'. Actually one of the more sensible excuses for converting karma to cash that I've seen.

3) They're in for a hard time. Culture, slang, and ettiquette will have changed a bunch in 50 years or so. Compare now to the 1950's. They will be very clumsy, socially. Tech will have changed too. How good are they with those ancient electronic circuits? Computer skills will be worthless, pre-crash. The whole infrastructure changed. How literate is the group? Enforce those R/W skill rolls. You're no longer in a post-literate society, Johnny. (basically, I can see a bunch of skills having to be defaulted to the stat).

4) Sure they can look for a contact - Did he tell them the truth about his past? I mean, obviously _he_ doesn't remember them coming to see him, does he?

5) Man from future = plague carrier. I like the idea somebody had about them _starting_ the VITAS plagues.

6) Mages? um, the mana level was a bit lower then, no? Goblinization day was in the 2020's right?

[Herald of Verjig...]

I am in favor of having the PCs be responsible for at least half of the non-awakening related changes between 2009 and 2064.

Some little gun store picks up a discarder Predator 3. Likes the logo. Reverse engineers some of it and merges with the 2009 Ares to begin the process towards the 2064 Ares Macrotechnology.

When one of the PCs plugs into the internet, some aspect of him (or his utilities if a decker) become the basis of the crash virus. Even better if it is a decker with BlackHammer.

They try manipulating stocks, it artifically inflates the value of a few companies that eventually become other megacorps. During the intervening time, those corporations will notice large amounts of stock whose owner they can't find and will actively devalue those specific shares (redirect to a holding company, devalue that front, etc.).

Cybertechnology gets its real start when the severed arm (or other cyberware housing body part) of the street sam is found and later studied.

And especially VITAS.

[Moonstone Spider]

Hmm, if you want to screw with the timeline have them show up at the Randi Foundation and one of the mages casts fireball or levitate or something. 1 Million bucks for demonstrating that magic exists. Then you've got an entire run of them trying to escape every single government and organized crime family in the world since they'd want to have magic on their side.

Then again I personally like screwing up time, I don't adhere to the "No change is the best change" philosophy.

[Thistledown]

First, some clarifications:

The head scientist person made a deal with... a non-shadowrun character, who set up a bubble around her facility. Whatever happens to the timestream leaves out that bubble, which is why she was able to send them back. But other than island, yes, there is total causality in the timeline.

The team had about a day to find out info on the past before they left. Problem is, they're stuck in the bubble, so they only have access to what's on the base computer.(severed from timestream means no telecomunication feeds either.)
The only people who knew about the time travel thing before arriving there are the decker (the npc johnson) and the head scientist.

The scientist (and one of the runners, because the player had to drop) are staying in 2064 to run the machine. This is how they'll be getting back.

The were transported with all the gear they could fit inside the circle on the floor (which looked a lot like a stargate, incidently, and yes, I know that's not how they work)

They managed to get some starting cash by hacking some atm's. Bear in mind, the most you can draw without causing problems is $300 for most accounts, but hacking different banks got them about a grand a day to start with. The team wound up near Billings, Montana, and you'll have a bit of a stir if you take more than that.

The GM already told us that anything which flat-out benifits the character in money they can use now will have a much larger karma cost. This would be stuff like the horse races, etc. I'm inclined to agree on that. Sure it's perfectly logical, but not the stuff good karma's made of.

This first week's gaming time was mainly what we do in the three weeks we're there getting ready, with the run part of it starting near the begining next week.

*******************

So, suming up and answering what's been said so far.


For dealing with contacts, it would be bad to try and get a hold of the person, and even if you did and persuaded them to help you, you probably wouldn't get what you want. That sounds reasonable to me.

Their only planning on having the one combat run, so repairs to the cyberware aren't that much of an issue, as they'll (hopefully) be going back to get it fixed right after. But yes, anything left behind could cause some major problems.

For the economics, they were basically going to go off the info you could get in the old 1993 (2053) Corporate Shadowfiles book, and some of the info from the players part of the 1999 (2059) corporate download book. That is about the extent of their economics knowledge. That and instructions to start pulling everything out around 2028 and put it back in later. Chaulk it up to superstition (there was a crash in 1929 too.) As to banks, there would try for the Gemeinschaft Bank, the one on the Zurich-Orbital in 2064, but is an actual bank even today.

Ares, Aztecnology (then ORO), Renraku (Keruba), Saeder-krupp (BMW, Saeder Munitions, and Krupp Manufacturing), Shiawase, and possibly Wuxing and Mitsuhama (book doesn't say) existed in 2009, and the rest of the big 10 showed up later. They were only planing on dealing with stocks in those, to avoid some complications. And bonds maybe.

Part of the problem they would have with other types of getting hard money (gold) and stashing it some where is that they're only in the past for about 3 weeks, and most of that is in the middle of montana getting ready for the actual run. The money's not much help if you fail the run and can't use it when you get home.

They were told by the scientist to try and not make waves with selling technology. Doesn't mean the party will listen, but they might. But that could have some big effects too, I agree.

I really like the loan shark idea. My own character's got mob contacts (well, not at the moment though), maybe he'd think of something like that. Course, he's the orc, so maybe not.

VITAS. Oooh, I hadn't considered that, but it makes sence. Although the book has it starting in India in 2010, that could easily be changed. But then you have a loop without a causality start, which we'd like to avoid.

Our face is doing most of the talking, and with that much charisma, skills, edges, and phermones, he's doing well enough so far.

**************

The only major disturbance the team's cause so far is when our rigger took the U-haul we rented, took off the governors and everything else not needed, and drove around town at 140 mph. Part of the rest of the team filled a stolen vehicle report while this happened. Eventually, the cops stopped him, and some "fbi agents" (the face in disguise) had to persuade them to release the guy to him. Stupid Rigger. Even worse was the decker in the back of the U-haul who didn't notice any of this cause she was jacked into her deck.

I'm just glad I'm not the one that has to actually run the campaign with 10 (well, 9 now) players plus 2 NPC's.

The GM's got even weirder stuff planned for when we get back. Anybody ever read the "His Dark Materials" trilogy?