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> Question about commlinks and cyberlimbs
JonathanC
post Mar 29 2012, 06:19 PM
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Let's say that I have a cyberlimb, and I decide to use some of that limb's capacity to install a commlink, as as my go-to commlink, or a backup in case of emergencies. Would I have the benefits of a Direct Neural Interface to that commlink (hotsim, mental commands, etc.), or would I need to install a Datajack as well?

Also, regular commlinks have chipjacks as one of their "freebies" (along with a music player and some other junk, IIRC)...does this make datajacks generally less necessary? Couldn't you just slot knowsofts into your commlink while wearing trodes (or, perhaps, using an implanted commlink in your cyberarm?

The reason I'm not sure is that a regular implanted commlink presumably wouldn't have all of these things - a chipjack, for example. The whole point is that it's hidden, so having weird ports in your head would defeat the purpose. But a cyberarm opens up possibilities: is there a screen on your arm? COULD there be?
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Yerameyahu
post Mar 29 2012, 06:38 PM
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You get DNI, because it's technically an Implanted Commlink.

Yes, wireless, chipjacks, and everything else makes datajacks much less necessary. Most 'softs don't even come on chips at all, but as wireless downloads (like apps)… even BTLs.

The cyberarm implanted commlink should not have functionality that the meat implanted commlink doesn't have, no.
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JonathanC
post Mar 29 2012, 06:47 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 29 2012, 11:38 AM) *
You get DNI, because it's technically an Implanted Commlink.

Yes, wireless, chipjacks, and everything else makes datajacks much less necessary. Most 'softs don't even come on chips at all, but as wireless downloads (like apps)… even BTLs.

The cyberarm implanted commlink should not have functionality that the meat implanted commlink doesn't have, no.

A sensible argument; but it does mean that I'd have to shell out for an implanted datajack (which can also go into the arm) if I wanted to slot knowsofts/skillsofts and such. It's only 1 capacity, so it could be worth it.


Most people go bioware when they're building infiltrators to avoid scanners, but I was thinking of a concept that would work with cyber...you'd go through the scanner, they'd see you have a cyberarm, but impanted guns are designed to look innocuous, and who would care about computer stuff in your arm? You'd just look like an amputee ("I lost it in the war...which one? pick one")
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Yerameyahu
post Mar 29 2012, 07:00 PM
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Well, you need *some* kind of DNI for chips/(sim)softs (again, physical chips? Obsolete. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ). If you're not using trodes or a jack, then implant commlink is the choice. If you have some kind of DNI already (even implant commlink), then you just need to get the soft/chip somehow connected to it: skinlink, wireless, anything.
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Dakka Dakka
post Mar 29 2012, 07:05 PM
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Don't forget the the implanted Commlink does NOT include a sim module - not even a cold one. You are probably better off just buying a compartment in your cyberlimb and putting a regular commlink there.

Datajacks are largely obsolete. Trodes do the job just fine.

@Cyberware scanners: It is not clear whether they just detect a cyberlimb or a cyberlimb with spurs, a commlink, armor etc.
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JonathanC
post Mar 29 2012, 07:06 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 29 2012, 12:00 PM) *
Well, you need *some* kind of DNI for chips/(sim)softs (again, physical chips? Obsolete. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ). If you're not using trodes or a jack, then implant commlink is the choice. If you have some kind of DNI already (even implant commlink), then you just need to get the soft/chip somehow connected to it: skinlink, wireless, anything.

If it's a chip, and you have an implanted commlink, then skinlink/wireless isn't going to cut it; the chip is designed to slot into something, isn't it? You'd need either a physical commlink (which has a chip port or whatever), or a datajack.

Or you could just download your knowsofts wirelessly. The benefit of chips, though, is that you have your content in your hands, rather than existing in the Cloud.
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JonathanC
post Mar 29 2012, 07:08 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Mar 29 2012, 12:05 PM) *
Don't forget the the implanted Commlink does NOT include a sim module - not even a cold one. You are probably better off just buying a compartment in your cyberlimb and putting a regular commlink there.

Datajacks are largely obsolete. Trodes do the job just fine.

@Cyberware scanners: It is not clear whether they just detect a cyberlimb or a cyberlimb with spurs, a commlink, armor etc.

The description of the cybergun describes a device that is designed to look normal in a cyberware scan. Adding an implanted sim module to the arm would be a minor inconvenience, at worst...I'd still say it's a valid concept. To me, it adds a little bit of visual flavor to a stock Hacker character, and adds some convenience as well.
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Dakka Dakka
post Mar 29 2012, 07:17 PM
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QUOTE (JonathanC @ Mar 29 2012, 09:08 PM) *
The description of the cybergun describes a device that is designed to look normal in a cyberware scan.
So the commlink should show up, as it is not described as made to look normal.
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Mar 29 2012, 09:08 PM) *
Adding an implanted sim module to the arm would be a minor inconvenience, at worst...I'd still say it's a valid concept.
4 capacity gone already. A smuggling compartment only takes up 2.
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Mar 29 2012, 09:08 PM) *
To me, it adds a little bit of visual flavor to a stock Hacker character, and adds some convenience as well.
It is flavorful, but undergoing surgery to upgrade your iPhone is hardly convenient.
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JonathanC
post Mar 29 2012, 07:37 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Mar 29 2012, 12:17 PM) *
So the commlink should show up, as it is not described as made to look normal.

Implanted commlinks are described as common with "salarymen on the go", and would be unlikely to set off any alarms. In a secure area you'd likely be asked to deactivate the commlink (there's some fiction where Netcat, a Technomancer, goes into such a zone; she has to mentally suppress her biological node). I imagine you'd end up running in hidden mode and hoping that your firewall is sufficient to protect you from detection.
QUOTE
4 capacity gone already. A smuggling compartment only takes up 2.

How secure is this smuggling compartment? If you want to shield it from wireless scans that would detect the hardware, then it's going to be similarly inaccessible to contact from your datajack or trodes. Remember that a skinlink requires touch; rattling around in a box inside an artificial arm doesn't count. The benefit of an implanted commlink is that the connection is all internal.
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It is flavorful, but undergoing surgery to upgrade your iPhone is hardly convenient.

The surgery for implanted commlinks is done with nano-machines. A standard one is probably an outpatient procedure, like getting Laser eye surgery.
I imagine having a technician open up your cyber-arm is considerably less invasive than upgrading a standard implanted commlink. You could possibly do it yourself, which is more than you can say for the brain surgery required for a standard implanted commlink.
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Yerameyahu
post Mar 29 2012, 07:40 PM
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But, JonathanC, you can download the 'chip' into your commlink permanently (no cloud), or you can connect basically *anything* to your implanted comm via wireless/skinlink/etc.: almost any electronic device can plausibly have a chipjack. You're right: you can't slot a chip through your arm. But you'd almost never need to.

I'm not suggesting you'd even want an implant commlink, IMO. But some people do, and it's easy enough to deal with. As a practical matter, given how unimportant chipjacks are, your GM could easily allow a chipjack in your cyberarm for essentially free. Maybe in a fingertip compartment, but maybe just just on the surface anywhere. It'd be totally unremarkable.
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SpellBinder
post Mar 29 2012, 07:49 PM
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QUOTE (JonathanC @ Mar 29 2012, 11:19 AM) *
.... But a cyberarm opens up possibilities: is there a screen on your arm? COULD there be?

I'd expect there is a screen built into the arm, like flipping a panel up so you could see it (like Buzz Lightyear accessing his "communicator"). Same for accessing ports for slotting chips, credsticks, and such.
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Dakka Dakka
post Mar 29 2012, 07:51 PM
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QUOTE (JonathanC @ Mar 29 2012, 09:37 PM) *
Implanted commlinks are described as common with "salarymen on the go", and would be unlikely to set off any alarms.
The commlink would not set off alarms, but if every upgrade to a cyberlimb is detected individually, anything else that is not disguised may. Moreover the Cyberware scanner does not care about whether the cybergun is concealed. it is always threshold 1 unless the limb is of a better grade.

QUOTE (JonathanC @ Mar 29 2012, 09:37 PM) *
How secure is this smuggling compartment? If you want to shield it from wireless scans that would detect the hardware, then it's going to be similarly inaccessible to contact from your datajack or trodes. Remember that a skinlink requires touch; rattling around in a box inside an artificial arm doesn't count. The benefit of an implanted commlink is that the connection is all internal.
I was not advocating using the smuggling compartment I merely meant that it is less inconvenient than the implant, if you insist on having the commlink inside your body.

QUOTE (JonathanC @ Mar 29 2012, 09:37 PM) *
The surgery for implanted commlinks is done with nano-machines. A standard one is probably an outpatient procedure, like getting Laser eye surgery.
I imagine having a technician open up your cyber-arm is considerably less invasive than upgrading a standard implanted commlink. You could possibly do it yourself, which is more than you can say for the brain surgery required for a standard implanted commlink.
Yes, upgrading the commlink inside a cyberlimb is probably less difficult than working on one in the head, but it is still much more hassle than taking your commlink to the next radio shck and have it upgraded.

@Spellbinder: While this may be stylish, there is no reason whatsoever to include a screen. You have a DNI so you are the information directly into your brain.
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JonathanC
post Mar 29 2012, 07:52 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 29 2012, 12:40 PM) *
But, JonathanC, you can download the 'chip' into your commlink permanently (no cloud), or you can connect basically *anything* to your implanted comm via wireless/skinlink/etc.: almost any electronic device can plausibly have a chipjack. You're right: you can't slot a chip through your arm. But you'd almost never need to.

I'm not suggesting you'd even want an implant commlink, IMO. But some people do, and it's easy enough to deal with.

The only devices that would reasonably have chipjacks would be devices for accessing data, like a commlink or a node. You couldn't downloaod the *chip* directly via a skinlink or wireless, but if the data on that chip was also somewhere on the Matrix, you could download it from there. A chip is a chip; it's not an active thing. RFID tags are wirelessly accessible, but they don't contain data. Datachips are specifically for storing data physically; you have to physically slot them into something to access the data.

So if all you had was an implanted commlink without a datajack, you'd have no way of accessing the data. Once you found some kind of data reader device that was wirelessly accessible (or compatible with a skinlink, assuming you have one) you'd be in business though.

Regarding the storage internal to the commlink, it is implied rather heavily that the reason we no longer track data sizes in SR4 is that "omnipresent wireless systems allow a...fast and always-available transfer of information..." (SR4A, p.330) This implies that if you were removed from the Cloud for some reason (Z-zone, wireless paint, faraday cage, etc.) you would lose access to that storage.

Now, living in Seattle or another sprawl, the chances of such a thing happening to most people is nil, which is why hardware data storage is so rare. But if I was a shadowrunning hacker, you'd better believe I'd have hard copies of all of my data and a way of accessing them.
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Dakka Dakka
post Mar 29 2012, 07:55 PM
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No everything is WiFi capable even chips.
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JonathanC
post Mar 29 2012, 08:06 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Mar 29 2012, 12:51 PM) *
The commlink would not set off alarms, but if every upgrade to a cyberlimb is detected individually, anything else that is not disguised may. Moreover the Cyberware scanner does not care about whether the cybergun is concealed. it is always threshold 1 unless the limb is of a better grade.

"To meet their stealth requirements, most of their parts are built from non-metallic compounds, while the remaining metallic parts are incorporated into the (cyber) arms structure." (SR4A, p.344)

It's going to pass a scan; that's what it's there for. If your cyberarm is jacked up beyond the normal specs (cyberlimb enhancements are restricted, for example, but customized cyberlimbs with higher ratings are fine). The scanner would detect the limb without a doubt, but cyberguns are specifically described as designed to appear integral to the limb's functions, and all other parts are non-metallic. Besides, millimeter-wave detection systems are described as scanning for energy signatures; an inactive weapon wouldn't really be distinguishable from the parts used to move the arm normally.

QUOTE
I was not advocating using the smuggling compartment I merely meant that it is less inconvenient than the implant, if you insist on having the commlink inside your body.

It doesn't really provide the utility of an implanted commlink, so I don't see how it's relevant. This is like saying that swallowinig a cellphone gives you all of the benefits of having a cellphone implanted in your brain. It simply isn't true.

QUOTE
Yes, upgrading the commlink inside a cyberlimb is probably less difficult than working on one in the head, but it is still much more hassle than taking your commlink to the next radio shck and have it upgraded.

I never compared implanted commlinks to regular commlinks in terms of convenience; you did. The whole point is in having a commlink that is concealed from view, easily explainable if it is detected by authorities, and difficult to become separated from (it's more likely that someone would ask you to hand over your commlink than saw off your arm).

QUOTE
@Spellbinder: While this may be stylish, there is no reason whatsoever to include a screen. You have a DNI so you are the information directly into your brain.

The screen would be more for displaying information to others, I imagine. I'd probably allow it as a freebie on an Obvious cyberlimb, but it seems unlikely on a limb that is supposed to look natural at first glance.
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Seriously Mike
post Mar 29 2012, 08:08 PM
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Or, if you have cybereyes, you have a HUD. I narrate it this way for the guy who plays the hacker in my forum campaign - he has an implanted commlink, sim module and cybereyes, so he pretty much controls everything with his mind.
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JonathanC
post Mar 29 2012, 08:08 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Mar 29 2012, 12:55 PM) *
No everything is WiFi capable even chips.

Cite some rules for this. The entry on Datachips says nothing about this, and it's ridiculous to assume that this would be the case for a storage device. It's just storage; it doesn't have the "brains" necessary for wireless communication. RFID chips aren't even wirelessly "accessible"; they're just passively readable. You write on them, and they display a message when read wirelessly, because that's what they're designed for.

Datachips are designed to hold data for physical access, not wireless access.
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Yerameyahu
post Mar 29 2012, 08:10 PM
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That's what I said, JonathanC: basically any device is gonna let your chip connect to your comm. Almost anything could plausibly have a chipjack.

I don't agree. The cloud is there, but data storage is also effectively infinite on a local level as well. In particular, the rules provide no evidence that it's not. If you were getting data from other places during hacks and things, you can bet the rules would've mentioned the significant implications that would have.

So. It's incredibly easy to read a chip, chips barely exist anyway, and you have infinite easy cloud and local storage. It's like you're looking for problems. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) If so, you could indeed add some 'gritty computing' house rules.
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JonathanC
post Mar 29 2012, 08:13 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 29 2012, 01:10 PM) *
That's what I said, JonathanC: basically any device is gonna let your chip connect to your comm. Almost anything could plausibly have a chipjack.

I don't agree. The cloud is there, but data storage is also effectively infinite on a local level as well. In particular, the rules provide no evidence that it's not.

The only mentions of infinite data storage attribute that infinite storage to the existence of the Cloud; there is no reason to believe that local data is infinite. Very large, yes. Large enough to store all of your hacking programs and such on a datachip, for certain. Hell, even in SR3 you could store all of the programs on a deck, you just couldn't have them all loaded at once.


Also, please define these devices that could "plausibly" read a chip, that aren't a commlink or a node. Guns don't have commlinks in them unless you pay extra, so what are we talking about?
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Yerameyahu
post Mar 29 2012, 08:22 PM
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So… we agree? Local storage is functionally as much as you'd plausibly need. I don't mean literally infinite. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Pick a gadget. Camera, toaster, whatever. It doesn't matter, because you'll have *something* that can read a chip, and you'll copy it to your link.
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JonathanC
post Mar 29 2012, 08:41 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 29 2012, 12:22 PM) *
So… we agree? Local storage is functionally as much as you'd plausibly need. I don't mean literally infinite. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Pick a gadget. Camera, toaster, whatever. It doesn't matter, because you'll have *something* that can read a chip, and you'll copy it to your link.

We disagree on connectivity. There's no reason for a toaster to read chips. A camera, perhaps, but if chips are really in such rare use, why would a camera still have a chip slot?
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Yerameyahu
post Mar 29 2012, 08:49 PM
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It's enough that it could. We're talking about prices and options well below the radar for SR4's level of abstraction. That's all I'm saying: this is handwaving level stuff. Unless your GM (or you, as GM) wants to press the issue (and perhaps intentionally be mean)… it's just not an issue. Worst case, you buy some disposable commlinks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It's not in the rules, which is kind of the point. It's below the level that the rules care about. There are little hints:
QUOTE
optical memory chips (OMCs) can hold hundreds of gigapulses of data in a small finger-sized chip, accessible by any electronic device.
That kinda thing. There's also no 'chipjack/chipreader' item you can actually buy, AFAIK?
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JonathanC
post Mar 29 2012, 08:57 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 29 2012, 12:49 PM) *
It's enough that it could. We're talking about prices and options well below the radar for SR4's level of abstraction. That's all I'm saying: this is handwaving level stuff. Unless your GM (or you, as GM) wants to press the issue (and perhaps intentionally be mean)… it's just not an issue. Worst case, you buy some disposable commlinks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It's not mean, it's detail. It allows for tension...it defines the differences in how technology is used in the mainstream world (where wireless is king) and in the Barrens (where spotty coverage means chips are still being used).
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KarmaInferno
post Mar 29 2012, 08:59 PM
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QUOTE (JonathanC @ Mar 29 2012, 04:08 PM) *
Cite some rules for this. The entry on Datachips says nothing about this, and it's ridiculous to assume that this would be the case for a storage device. It's just storage; it doesn't have the "brains" necessary for wireless communication. RFID chips aren't even wirelessly "accessible"; they're just passively readable. You write on them, and they display a message when read wirelessly, because that's what they're designed for.

Datachips are designed to hold data for physical access, not wireless access.

You realize this is a universe where even underwear has wireless connectivity, yes?



-k
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JonathanC
post Mar 29 2012, 09:17 PM
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Wireless, yes. Chip ports? no.
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