Question about commlinks and cyberlimbs Options

[KarmaInferno]

The difference, as you apparently already understand, is that the video isn't coming from the camera directly; the camera is being accessed by the commlink, which is then pulling the data from the camera and sending it to the contact lenses.

So how is this different than a commlink wirelessly pulling data from a storage chip?

Nobody is saying that a data chip can replace a commlink, just that it can be accessed wirelessly.

I have no idea why you keep going on about needing or not needing commlinks. Nobody even mentioned that.




-k

[Halinn]

As to why certain information should be on a physical chip and not in remote storage, I don't know, it might simply be a holdover from previous editions or a means to restrict the amount of simultaneously available information (linked devices etc.). A lot of Matrix stuff does not make much sense when compared to real world IT.

Storage not in a cloud means that it won't get deleted if someone with admin access to the cloud wants to delete it. You control the spread of the information on the chip (i.e. it won't get copied without access to the chip, while information in a cloud has to be copied). I assume that the wireless on the chips can be turned off for security purposes, too.

[JonathanC]

Can a smartlink be installed in contact lenses? Yes
Is a smartlink an electronic device? Yes
Can any electronic device access the information on a datachip? Yes
Does a smartlink in a contact lens include a chip reader? Most definitely no.

Ergo the chip must have a wireless interface. No houserules here.

As to why certain information should be on a physical chip and not in remote storage, I don't know, it might simply be a holdover from previous editions or a means to restrict the amount of simultaneously available information (linked devices etc.). A lot of Matrix stuff does not make much sense when compared to real world IT.

This is getting stupid. A smartlink is not an electronic device. You can't just buy a smartlink and expect it to do anything. It's an enhancement to a weapon, and an enhancement to a visual device like glasses or goggles. It's a set of components, not an electronic device. Electronic Devices are the things listed in the Electronics section of the book. Data Chips and Software are listed in a separate section for a reason.

[KarmaInferno]

You are treating "Electronic Device" as some rigidly Defined Term.

It's not.

"Electronic Device" could just as easily be defined as anything with chips in it.

I looked up the devices you're talking about; that's not what they do. If you are talking about other devices, well....some links would be nice.

60 seconds of searching:

http://www.kingston.com/us/usb/wireless

http://www.seagate.com/www/en-us/products/...oflex-satellite



-k

[JonathanC]

Storage not in a cloud means that it won't get deleted if someone with admin access to the cloud wants to delete it. You control the spread of the information on the chip (i.e. it won't get copied without access to the chip, while information in a cloud has to be copied). I assume that the wireless on the chips can be turned off for security purposes, too.

How? It's a fucking optical chip, not a fucking computer. It doesn't have buttons. It's described as a finger-sized chip. If you turn off the wireless WIRELESSLY, then how the fuck do you turn it back on?

This is fucking retarded. If the chips were meant to be wirelessly accessible, it would say so in the book.


Also, if "electronic devices" included shit that is too small to have an access port, then why are Datajacks described as allowing "...a user to directly interface with any electronic device via a fiberoptic cable"?


I guess according to Derp Derp, it must be possible to shove a fucking fiberoptic cable into your contact lenses, since they're "electronic devices" and the book says you can access any electronic device with a fiberoptic cable.



Oh, wait. To anybody with a WORKING BRAIN, that makes no goddamn sense, so it's clear that the term "electronic devices" refers specifically to things that are large enough to have some kind of cable port.

[KarmaInferno]

Dude, nobody's leveling insults at you. Chill.

As the old saying goes, attack the subject, not the people.

Other people will have a different perspective than you. That doesn't make them stupid.




-k

[JonathanC]

Dude, nobody's leveling insults at you. Chill.

As the old saying goes, attack the subject, not the people.

Other people will have a different perspective than you. That doesn't make them stupid.




-k

No, but claiming that a pair of enhanced contact lenses can read data directly without the use of a commlink is pretty stupid.


No comment on the Datajack description, then?


Also, it's worth pointing out that the devices you are referring to are *not* what you initially described: They are not USB drives, they aren't fobs, and they don't have the size/shape of usb drives.

[Halinn]

http://www.techspot.com/news/47618-fxis-19...t-computer.html

Current technology allows for a wifi enabled fully functional computer the size of a USB drive.
The datachip is finger sized. Have you actually looked at the size of your fingers? There's easily room for a wireless on/off button, as well as any kind of cable you'd like and a way to physically connect it to a commlink.

[JonathanC]

http://www.techspot.com/news/47618-fxis-19...t-computer.html

Current technology allows for a wifi enabled fully functional computer the size of a USB drive.
The datachip is finger sized. Have you actually looked at the size of your fingers? There's easily room for a wireless on/off button, as well as any kind of cable you'd like and a way to physically connect it to a commlink.

Fully functional? Where's the input? Where's the display? I'm familiar with these devices, but they don't do the things that you are all suggesting that they do.

[KarmaInferno]

No, but claiming that a pair of enhanced contact lenses can read data directly without the use of a commlink is pretty stupid.

They can.

As long as they've been commanded to, anyway.

Seriously, go read. I just did. They are peripheral matrix devices which can send and receive data to and from any device in their PAN, and with a connection, to and from any device on the Matrix.

No, they don't have the same capabilities as a Commlink. That is why they are peripheral devices.

That's straight RAW.

Literally every damn thing with chips in Shadowrun is wireless, can serve as a mesh node, and can pass and share data with any other wireless device. Some, like Nexi and Commlinks, are multifunction and can be used to hack and program. Others, like coffee makers and contact lenses and, in fact, data storage devices, are dedicated-purpose and can normally only be used for their specific designed task.

Peripheral Devices are usually slaved to a commlink or nexus in order to command them, yes. That does not mean they cannot send or receive data to another peripheral device directly.

In fact, the way the Shadowrun network system works, you don't have devices attached to a commlink to route the data. You have a bunch of devices and a commlink on a mesh network, with every single damn device capable of serving as a router to any other device.

No comment on the Datajack description, then?

Datajacks can "directly interface with any electronic device via a fiberoptic cable. "

If a device has a fiberoptic cable, it can interface with the Datajack. I don't see the confusion.



-k

[Halinn]

Fully functional? Where's the input? Where's the display? I'm familiar with these devices, but they don't do the things that you are all suggesting that they do.

The computer currently sitting on my desk is a fully functional computer. There are interface issues without the peripherals I plug into it, but it can compute without them.

[JonathanC]

They can.

As long as they've been commanded to, anyway.

Seriously, go read. I just did. They are peripheral matrix devices which can send and receive data to and from any device in their PAN, and with a connection, to and from any device on the Matrix.

No, they don't have the same capabilities as a Commlink. That is why they are peripheral devices.

That's straight RAW.

Literally every damn thing with chips in Shadowrun is wireless, can serve as a mesh node, and can pass and share data with any other wireless device. Some, like Nexi and Commlinks, are multifunction and can be used to hack and program. Others, like coffee makers and contact lenses and, in fact, data storage devices, are dedicated-purpose and can normally only be used for their specific designed task.

Peripheral Devices are usually slaved to a commlink or nexus in order to command them, yes. That does not mean they cannot send or receive data to another peripheral device directly.

In fact, the way the Shadowrun network system works, you don't have devices attached to a commlink to route the data. You have a bunch of devices and a commlink on a mesh network, with every single damn device capable of serving as a router to any other device.




Datajacks can "directly interface with any electronic device via a fiberoptic cable. "

If a device has a fiberoptic cable, it can interface with the Datajack. I don't see the confusion.



-k

The problem is that if any electronic device can be accessed via a fiber optic cable, and we consider contact lenses to be electronic devices, then you must be able to shove a fiber optic cable into your contact lenses.

This is clearly ridiculous. Chips are not read wirelessly; if they were, then why is "reading datasofts" one of the primary listed functions of a datajack? If you could read chips with your fucking toaster or contact lenses or fucking hair dryer, then why would that sentence be present in the description of a datajack?

[KarmaInferno]

How? It's a fucking optical chip, not a fucking computer. It doesn't have buttons. It's described as a finger-sized chip. If you turn off the wireless WIRELESSLY, then how the fuck do you turn it back on?

Says who?

That USB drive in your pocket. Is it just a chunk of silicon, or does it have additional circuits and translation software to allow it to communicate with a USB port?




-k

[Yerameyahu]

And things were going so well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

If push comes to shove, yes: basically everything in SR4 is an electronic device, and has wireless. It's certainly possible that some things don't, but that's below the level of abstraction the rules care about. That's why things like Device Rating exist, despite being a horrible kluge.

Yes, not everything makes sense if you extend it all ad absurdum. Contacts probably don't have fiber-optic ports (a classic example that every SR4 player notices), even though 'all devices' might… in general; etc. Just make sure the GM and the players agree ahead of time, or yes, it's 'mean' GM fiat to spring it on them.

Datajacks *used* to be for chips, and they still are… if you don't want to use wireless, or the chip doesn't have it. But that's not incompatible with the option. Datajacks *themselves* have wireless, even though their primary purpose is—wait for it—being *wired*. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Chips are all but completely obsolete anyway. The commlink mentions a million little functions that no one cares about (they don't even get stats, even for the camera, the earbuds, etc.).

[JonathanC]

The computer currently sitting on my desk is a fully functional computer. There are interface issues without the peripherals I plug into it, but it can compute without them.

which brings up the other problem: that device you linked to doesn't have a power button that I can see. It's a peripheral, you plug it into a display.

[Yerameyahu]

So, add a power button. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[JonathanC]

Says who?

That USB drive in your pocket. Is it just a chunk of silicon, or does it have additional circuits and translation software to allow it to communicate with a USB port?




-k

Do you seriously not understand how USB devices work? Or are you being cute by trying to equate an integrated system (like the one in modern automobiles) with a fully-functional system (like the one in your computer)?

[JonathanC]

So, add a power button. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I thought this argument was about RAW? It's never directly stated that Data chips have wireless capability, or are considered electronics. It says that they are readable by any electronic device, but it also says that a Datajack is used for reading datasofts. Datajacks connect to any electronic device via a cable, but if we consider something like contact lenses to be electronic devices, then it's ridiculous.

You don't simply add power buttons to random things that don't need them because it would help you win an argument.

[KarmaInferno]

I think I realized where our disconnect here is.

JC, you are envisioning optical memory chips as JUST the bare storage media, much like a CD or DVD disc. You need a media reader to access it's contents, and it does not have any internal electronics. Maybe like a chunk of clear crystal like you see in many sci-fi shows for storage media. Yes?

If this is the case then yes it probably would not have wireless.

I think most of the rest of us are envisioning more along the lines of a USB thumb drive. USB drive are a set of flash memory connected to a set of transfer and control chips, with translation software for Plug-n-Play and some power regulation circuits. If you open up a USB drive they're actually pretty complex.

In this kinda setup, it would fall under the description "electronic device". It clearly has command and control electronics aside from the actual storage media, and more or less contains the media reader in one package. And as an electronic device it would automatically come with wireless.

It does not help here that the entire descriptive text on what a data chip looks like is "a small finger-sized chip". This could be read to mean ONLY the storage media, or the storage media WITH associated reader and control circuits in a chip container.

"Chip" being kinda a non-specific descriptive term.

The thing is, Datajacks have always been described more like a socket for plugging cables into than a media reader. Kinda like a USB port. So in my mind my second description makes more sense. And in the second, it wouldn't be hard to add a wireless antenna and power source.

Additionally, BTLs are described as similar chips, fit into the same chipjacks and datajacks as data chips, and are described as having varying levels of support electronics in them.



-k

[Halinn]

Did you actually know how small USB drives can be? I've seen them down to 20 mm on the longest end, with 16 GB of storage. Storage hardly takes any space. Why would a datachip be so much bigger than needed if it did not include some additional features?

[Yerameyahu]

Um? You're the one who said a given (RL) device couldn't be X because it lacked a power button. So, assume in 2070 they added one. The point was that's a silly detail to be worried about. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The point is that it's also never 'directly' stated that these things *don't* have the features you list. You can't use that as an argument; that *is* the argument.

[JonathanC]

I think I realized where our disconnect here is.

JC, you are envisioning optical memory chips as JUST the bare storage media, much like a CD or DVD disc. You need a media reader to access it's contents, and it does not have any internal electronics. Maybe like a chunk of clear crystal like you see in many sci-fi shows for storage media. Yes?

If this is the case then yes it probably would not have wireless.

I think most of the rest of us are envisioning more along the lines of a USB thumb drive. USB drive are a set of flash memory connected to a set of transfer and control chips, with translation software for Plug-n-Play and some power regulation circuits. If you open up a USB drive they're actually pretty complex.

In this kinda setup, it would fall under the description "electronic device". It clearly has command and control electronics aside from the actual storage media, and more or less contains the media reader in one package. And as an electronic device it would automatically come with wireless.

It does not help here that the entire descriptive text on what a data chip looks like is "a small finger-sized chip". This could be read to mean ONLY the storage media, or the storage media WITH associated reader and control circuits in a chip container.

"Chip" being kinda a non-specific descriptive term.

The thing is, Datajacks have always been described more like a socket for plugging cables into than a media reader. Kinda like a USB port. So in my mind my second description makes more sense. And in the second, it wouldn't be hard to add a wireless antenna and power source.

Additionally, BTLs are described as similar chips, fit into the same chipjacks and datajacks as data chips, and are described as having varying levels of support electronics in them.



-k

That is, indeed, the nature of the disconnect. The thing about datajacks, though, is that they are already described as having wireless capability; if they were simply hooking into the datachip as an electronic device, rather than a storage media, why wouldn't they just attach wirelessly? Why would you even need a datajack in the first place? Why would accessing datasofts even be referenced as one of the primary uses of a datajack?

The fact that BTLs are described as similar "chips", and are also described as being "chipped in" to either a simsense player or a datajack reinforces the idea that these chips are inserted, not accessed wirelessly. The additional electronics in a BTL are usually described as controlling certain feedback levels, or ensuring that the chip only plays once (which you can "fix" with a ridiculously easy Hardware test)

Also interesting is the description for the Data Lock, which states:

"Most importantly, the data lock is neither wireless-enabled, nor does the implanted character have mental access to the data—she’s merely a carrier."

Now, if these chips had to be accessed wirelessly, the Data Lock would be useless; it couldn't access a damn thing. If the chips were even capable of *both* - wired and wireless access - the implied security would be useless. You could just hijack the chip's wireless signal, or hack into it directly.

Did you actually know how small USB drives can be? I've seen them down to 20 mm on the longest end, with 16 GB of storage. Storage hardly takes any space. Why would a datachip be so much bigger than needed if it did not include some additional features?

There are practical limits to miniaturization. Ask anyone who owned one of the "tiny square clip" ipod nanos.

[Yerameyahu]

I already addressed this: datajacks do multiple things. They have wired and wireless, why shouldn't they have chipjack and… wireless? The descriptions of BTLs/etc. only tell us that chips and chipping still exists, in part.

You don't need a datajack in the first place. It's old tech for old methods. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The Data Lock is a wholly separate thing. What does it have to do with chips? It says 'stored data', which is presumably on the Lock's normal (infinite) storage as an (electronic) 'device'.

[JonathanC]

I already addressed this: datajacks do multiple things. They have wired and wireless, why shouldn't they have chipjack and… wireless? The descriptions of BTLs/etc. only tell us that chips and chipping still exists, in part.

You don't need a datajack in the first place. It's old tech for old methods. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The Data Lock is a wholly separate thing. What does it have to do with chips? It says 'stored data', which is presumably on the Lock's normal (infinite) storage as an (electronic) 'device'.

If chipping wasn't a necessity for using BTLs, nobody would do it, and it would no longer be a thing. The datalock is not a separate thing; it's just a datajack without wireless. And arguments like this are why I keep losing my temper here: how the fuck do you expect data to have gotten into this fucking data lock if it has no wireless if not by chip? What happens when you need the data out of that guy's head but still portable? you use a chip.


Also, I'd like to remind everyone that we aren't actually that far past where SR3 was, and after a certain point huge leaps in technology become far more rare; unless there has been some serious retconning, data chips are just that: CHIPS.

[Yerameyahu]

… It's not necessary for BTLs. It's in the book. Chips do still exist, but they also don't *have* to. Everything is available as downloads. That's not really relevant to the question of whether chips have wireless, though.

A data lock might get data off a chip (physically) or via a wire (y'know, *the* primary function of the datajack?). These are both good options, neither of which precludes chips having wireless. I don't understand what relevance you think the data lock has. Yes, it's a data jack… minus the DNI and the wireless. So, not really a datajack at all; more like a data lock, which presumably has it's own memory storage.

Why is it a problem that these multiple options exist? Everything in SR is like that. Trodes/implanted comm/datajack, wired/wireless/skinlink/laser…

I assumed you kept losing your temper because you lack self-control.