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> Texas Succeeds, A thought experiment
Draco18s
post Apr 1 2012, 12:16 AM
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Lone Star State Of Mind: Could Texas Go It Alone?

Interesting story I heard on the radio the other day on my drive home, and while not related to ShadowRun, it provides an interesting perspective on how feasible a breakup of the states would be, and what this "Lone Star Country" might look like.
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Glyph
post Apr 1 2012, 04:27 AM
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The whole notion of splintering nation-states was done poorly in Shadowrun - some relatively stable nations, such as the United States, were split up, while other, less stable and far more balkanized nations were kept intact.

Texas would not fare well as an independent nation; currently, it takes in a lot more from the federal government than it contributes. Even in the goofy Shadowrun alterniverse where the AmerIndians took over half of the country, an independent Texas did not last long.
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Draco18s
post Apr 1 2012, 04:39 AM
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QUOTE (Glyph @ Mar 31 2012, 11:27 PM) *
The whole notion of splintering nation-states was done poorly in Shadowrun - some relatively stable nations, such as the United States, were split up, while other, less stable and far more balkanized nations were kept intact.


Very true. Seattle being off by itself being the one oddity I can point at that I don't think anyone can argue about.

I'm not as well versed about the other weirdy bits.

QUOTE
Texas would not fare well as an independent nation; currently, it takes in a lot more from the federal government than it contributes. Even in the goofy Shadowrun alterniverse where the AmerIndians took over half of the country, an independent Texas did not last long.


Even if the ultra-conservatives "small government is good government" build the new country the way they'd like, they'd still end up with more federal government than what currently exists as state government:
Foreign embassies and the like, plus all the stuff that the feds do that the state doesn't do (highway repair, and all that).
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Bigity
post Apr 1 2012, 03:41 PM
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Yup, the biggest problem would be the roads. We get a ton of federal money for that. Other than that, theoretically if we stopped shipping off our state-produced food/beef/cotton/etc, we would be much more self-sufficient, and then sell oil/gas/etc for the rest.

BUUUUT, we tried being on our own before and it didn't work out all that great. Despite what all Texans (myself included) would like to believe.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Apr 1 2012, 03:44 PM
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QUOTE (Bigity @ Apr 1 2012, 08:41 AM) *
Yup, the biggest problem would be the roads. We get a ton of federal money for that. Other than that, theoretically if we stopped shipping off our state-produced food/beef/cotton/etc, we would be much more self-sufficient, and then sell oil/gas/etc for the rest.

BUUUUT, we tried being on our own before and it didn't work out all that great. Despite what all Texans (myself included) would like to believe.


Different Times, Bigity... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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hobgoblin
post Apr 1 2012, 04:28 PM
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QUOTE (Glyph @ Apr 1 2012, 05:27 AM) *
The whole notion of splintering nation-states was done poorly in Shadowrun - some relatively stable nations, such as the United States, were split up, while other, less stable and far more balkanized nations were kept intact.

Texas would not fare well as an independent nation; currently, it takes in a lot more from the federal government than it contributes. Even in the goofy Shadowrun alterniverse where the AmerIndians took over half of the country, an independent Texas did not last long.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool
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Glyph
post Apr 1 2012, 05:52 PM
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QUOTE (Bigity @ Apr 1 2012, 08:41 AM) *
BUUUUT, we tried being on our own before and it didn't work out all that great. Despite what all Texans (myself included) would like to believe.

Heck, Texas was still considered a rebellious territory by Mexico when it applied for statehood. Even the war for Texan independence has a lot of folks from the rest of the United States, like the New Orleans Greys, pitching in. It's no surprise that a lot of people consider the whole situation nothing but a land grab by the U.S.
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Method
post Apr 1 2012, 06:38 PM
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I think all depends on the political climate. If Texas wanted to reorganize itself into an independent nation and the US didn't deem it worthy of a civil war, I doubt our current international community would stand idly by and allow Mexico to invade.

In fact, today's international political climate, I think youd have some nations (Russia and China for example) rushing to recognize Texas as a sovereign nation.
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 1 2012, 06:41 PM
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'Secedes'. I read the title and I'm like, "A thought experiment where Texas doesn't fail?" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I still think Texas should be broken into four states.
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pbangarth
post Apr 1 2012, 07:50 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Apr 1 2012, 12:28 PM) *

Damn it! You almost trapped me in tvtropes!

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 1 2012, 02:41 PM) *
'Secedes'. I read the title and I'm like, "A thought experiment where Texas doesn't fail?" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Yeah, it had me going for a minute, too.

Seems like many countries have their secessionist corners. The long-term thinkers in them tend to hold back the hot-heads.
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Starmage21
post Apr 1 2012, 08:27 PM
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I'm actually more interested in the thought experiments where the United States becomes a dictatorship in the same way that both greece and rome did. Fairly confident that history WILL repeat itself.
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Glyph
post Apr 1 2012, 09:04 PM
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I don't see the U.S. ever becoming a traditional dictatorship. If you're going for dystopia, emphasize the worst fears of both conservatives and liberals - a sprawling military-industrial and prison complex, and a powerful oligarchy of plutocrats and industrialists who buy and sell candidates and write their own laws. Combine that with economic policies that create economic inequality similar to that of the Great Society, along with gun control and other limits to civil liberties that people will be conditioned to accept under the guise of national security. A dystopic version of the United States would still be a democracy in name, just not in fact.
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HaxDBeheader
post Apr 1 2012, 09:35 PM
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QUOTE (Glyph @ Apr 1 2012, 09:04 PM) *
I don't see the U.S. ever becoming a traditional dictatorship. If you're going for dystopia, emphasize the worst fears of both conservatives and liberals - a sprawling military-industrial and prison complex, and a powerful oligarchy of plutocrats and industrialists who buy and sell candidates and write their own laws. Combine that with economic policies that create economic inequality similar to that of the Great Society, along with gun control and other limits to civil liberties that people will be conditioned to accept under the guise of national security. A dystopic version of the United States would still be a democracy in name, just not in fact.


Add in a more conspicuously enshrined stratification of citizenship ala SINner vs SINless and the ability to strip citizenship for select crimes & tada, an underclass with no voting rights is available.
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Draco18s
post Apr 2 2012, 01:36 AM
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QUOTE (Glyph @ Apr 1 2012, 04:04 PM) *
I don't see the U.S. ever becoming a traditional dictatorship. If you're going for dystopia, emphasize the worst fears of both conservatives and liberals - a sprawling military-industrial and prison complex, and a powerful oligarchy of plutocrats and industrialists who buy and sell candidates and write their own laws. Combine that with economic policies that create economic inequality similar to that of the Great Society, along with gun control and other limits to civil liberties that people will be conditioned to accept under the guise of national security. A dystopic version of the United States would still be a democracy in name, just not in fact.


Wait, wait, wait, this isn't already true? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 2 2012, 01:46 AM
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I assumed he was being darkly sarcastic.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Apr 2 2012, 02:14 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 1 2012, 12:41 PM) *
'Secedes'. I read the title and I'm like, "A thought experiment where Texas doesn't fail?" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I still think Texas should be broken into four states.



Bite your tongue...
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Snow_Fox
post Apr 2 2012, 02:44 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 1 2012, 02:41 PM) *
'Secedes'. I read the title and I'm like, "A thought experiment where Texas doesn't fail?" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I still think Texas should be broken into four states.

The Constitution specifically forbids this. An independant nation would have all the paper pushing of forign relations meaning it's government out expand as it had to appoint ambassadors to other nation, welcome them in, close the border with Mexico better AND handle the fact it's borders with the US would suddeenly have to be manned. not fortified persay but just regular customs and then passports issued. Texas oil might also not be so plentiful as they think. Right now they can pretty much have a free reign in the gulf but as independant they'd lose a lot of that in the pinch with the EEZ of the USA starting at the Lousiana border while to the north there could be an issue of Oklahoma drawing on the same fields there.

Lastly, with absolutley NO apologies to the guys driving around screaming 'the south will rise again' states leaving the union was tried back in 1861-65.
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Warlordtheft
post Apr 3 2012, 01:13 PM
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QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ Apr 1 2012, 09:44 PM) *
Lastly, with absolutley NO apologies to the guys driving around screaming 'the south will rise again' states leaving the union was tried back in 1861-65.


The south has risen! Though it took a while, and well let's just say some issues never are going to get resolved to everyones satisfaction.

Just a thought, has anyone tried a civil war era shadow run?


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Draco18s
post Apr 3 2012, 01:55 PM
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QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Apr 3 2012, 08:13 AM) *
Just a thought, has anyone tried a civil war era shadow run?


That'd actually be kind of neat.

As a followup to the story I posted, they do "letters to the program" and a lot of people were like "really? we had to spend 8 minutes on this?"
But one guy mentioned a book that had been written (like 50 years ago) and made the comment "Texas wants to succeed, so I started an 'Americans for Texas Succession' group which squashed the whole idea: Texas wants to succeed, but they don't want anybody else to want them to."
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eudemonist
post Apr 4 2012, 01:36 AM
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EDIT: Bah, didn't see the "RL" tag. Thought that was an SR4. Don't mind this post...

Heck, we did, and we brought quite a few states with us into the C.A.S. Seein' as how aggressive the Azzie's are, it's good we did. It's pretty much a war for the border in Texas right now in SR...it's nice to have them Georgyans an' them 'Bama boys on our side.


As far as real life, sure, we could, but I don't think it would be a net benefit for Texas.
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Angelone
post Apr 4 2012, 01:50 AM
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Texas has a lot of US military, Fort Hood alone has 10 percent of the Army stationed there and most of the units are back now. There's about 50-60 thousand troops here, add Fort Bliss and Lackland Airbase where the Airforce does basic and AIT and you have a very sticky military situation.
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Snow_Fox
post Apr 4 2012, 02:17 AM
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Armored brigade at Fort Knox in Kentucky, the Marine base in camp lejune. The Atlantic Fleet in Norfolk VA. no nered to go on. just the needed beurocracy for an independant texas would drive taxes way up
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Whipstitch
post Apr 4 2012, 02:22 AM
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Texans certainly make up a sizable portion of the military--of the populous states, they have the highest percentage of soldiers enlisted--but the days of everyone just training or being stationed in their state of origin (or close by) are long gone, so it's tough to say how it'd shake out given that a lot of military personnel stationed in Texas may not be willing to back Texas in the event of secession.
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LurkerOutThere
post Apr 4 2012, 04:03 AM
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Plus you have to factor in how many join to get the frag out of Texas.
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 4 2012, 04:52 AM
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Surely servicemen pledge to defend the USA, not Texas. Dishonor!
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