Astral Surveillance, what information can you get about what happens on the physical Options

[Thanee]

If an astrally projecting mage wants to gain information about what happens on the physical, what information can he obtain from there?

Auras and such, obviously, as well as emotional states and so on.

Can he listen in on conversations? What kind of detail would he be able to gain about spoken information? i.e. someone is telling someone else a passphrase; can the mage learn that passphrase?

What about spells like Clairaudience/Clairvoyance - would those work from the astral to obtain information "as if physically present"? Can he learn how people look like physically? Can he hear what they say in all detail? Or do those spells only work when cast physically?

Bye
Thanee

[snowRaven]

This is without looking in any books, so I may not be spot on:

Astral surveillance can at best give information about emotional content of conversations - no words, phrases, or meaning otherwise. likewise, you can't read screens or text, except at best catch emotional impression of written text. You can't see words or logos or the like.

Clairvoyance and clairaudience wouldn't likely work between physical and astral plane either - even if they are mana spells (not sure atm), they could most likely not give the astral form 'standard' physical sensory input. Possibly they would give the body the sight or sound, but being astral the mage couldn't see or hear that anyway.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

This is without looking in any books, so I may not be spot on:

Astral surveillance can at best give information about emotional content of conversations - no words, phrases, or meaning otherwise. likewise, you can't read screens or text, except at best catch emotional impression of written text. You can't see words or logos or the like.

Clairvoyance and clairaudience wouldn't likely work between physical and astral plane either - even if they are mana spells (not sure atm), they could most likely not give the astral form 'standard' physical sensory input. Possibly they would give the body the sight or sound, but being astral the mage couldn't see or hear that anyway.

Spells are only active on the Plane they are cast on, so Clairvoyance and Clairaudience do not cross the boundries.

[Yerameyahu]

That's right: as an astral form, you basically can't do anything.

[Thanee]

While looking for an answer to this question myself, I have only found that spells can only be cast on targets on the same plane. The target of these spells, however, is the one gaining the sense.

Bye
Thanee

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Here is the relevant Quote...

Sorcery Cannot Bridge the Gap between the Astral and Physical Planes, Spells only have an effect in the plane on which they are cast. Spells cast on the astral have no effect on the physical, and vice versa. Likewise, spells cast in the astral or physical have no effect on the metaplanes, and vice versa.

[Thanee]

That looks good. Thank you! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Where did you find that quote?

Bye
Thanee

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That looks good. Thank you! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Where did you find that quote?

Bye
Thanee

Street Magic, in the section for the Limits on Sorcery. Near the Spell Design Section IIRC.

[Thanee]

Thank you! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Thank you! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bye
Thanee

My Pleasure... Glad to have helped. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Manunancy]

thouhg you can probably cast the clairvoyance/clairaudience spell before projecting, to keep an eye (or an ear) on what's going on at the spell's spot in the material world while wandering in the astral. Where your body is laying seems a good choice...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

thouhg you can probably cast the clairvoyance/clairaudience spell before projecting, to keep an eye (or an ear) on what's going on at the spell's spot in the material world while wandering in the astral. Where your body is laying seems a good choice...

I would say no... But that is me... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Manunancy]

Is it possible to maintain a spell in the physical plane while you're projecting ? (Obviously it must have been cast before the projection). If so you could probably do it.

Not that with the clairvoyance trick, you'll probably be at -2 from maintaining the spell and probably an extra -2 or the like from the extra sensory input messing up with your astral perception (sort of like AR impmairing your 'real' perception).

Of course, you could probably use a focus, or better a spirit, to keep the spell up and running to reduce the penalties.

[Yerameyahu]

You don't have access to your bodily senses while projecting, and magical senses wouldn't be an exception.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You don't have access to your bodily senses while projecting, and magical senses wouldn't be an exception.

And yes, this is the interpretation I choose to Utilize as well...

[Thanee]

About this part here...

Can he listen in on conversations? What kind of detail would he be able to gain about spoken information? i.e. someone is telling someone else a passphrase; can the mage learn that passphrase?

Two quotes:

SR4A p. 191 "Things that exist only on the physical plane can be seen and heard from the astral, albeit with blurred features and indistinct sound—emotional content registers far more strongly than exact details."

Street Magic p. 114 "It is also possible to eavesdrop on the noises, communications, and even smells of the physical world from the astral plane, but just like reading a physical book, the assensing character will perceive the emotional tone and impressions rather than the physical sensation."


Would it be possible at all to understand a passphrase spoken in the physical world from the astral?

Bye
Thanee

[snowRaven]

I'd say no.

You only get the emotional content of the phrase (which would be next to nothing) and indistinct sound.

[Thanee]

Ok. Thank you! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[Murrdox]

If you need to overhear a conversation, can't you just Manifest yourself under the desk in the room or in a closet, etc? Heck even inside a wall with only your ear sticking out.

[Yerameyahu]

That's not what Manifesting does. It lets other people see/hear *you* (as a magic hologram).

[Psikerlord]

hmm it does say the manifesting mage may "freely communicate with physical characters" though... SR4A p.193? And watcher spirits do a similar thing when they act as a courier (p.189) - they manifest, they dont materialise, and they are able to understand replies and return to their master with them. So if manifested, wouldn't a mage be able to talk and hear what the mundane is saying, just like a watcher? Similarly the watcher shadow task implies being able to hear mundanes when manifested (physical eavesdropping, p.190).

[Thanee]

Yep, that sounds right. Communication is surely both ways.

So, when Manifesting, physical conversations can be overheard with the risk of being seen (though finding appropriate cover should often be quite simple, considering you can just move through physical objects).

Bye
Thanee

[Yerameyahu]

'Communicate' doesn't entail 2-way, but that interpretation is certainly possible. It makes spying via astral a lot easier (like, way too easy). The watcher ability could be a target-specific psychic effect, but it could also not be. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Either way, yuck, I hate it when they break the astral divide.

[LurkerOutThere]

Communication is not inherently the same thing as listening. Communication implies both subjects are exchanging information knowingly. Perhaps a manifesting entity can only communicate with creatures aware of them and likewise can only receive from creatures aware of them. In essence your not listening with your magic ears but communicating withy our magic soul, which could be why if I remember correctly electronics can't pick up manifested presences without some sort of manatech go between.

[Thanee]

It is described as some sort of psychic communication.

Of course, one could always rule, that there has to be some sort of psychic link, which is obvious (you feel the psychic presence), for communicating thus making the astral spying impossible without being noticed.

Bye
Thanee