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> Sawed-off PJSS Model 55 Shotgun
Scythe31337
post Apr 5 2012, 04:19 PM
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I've been playing Shadowrun on and off since 4th edition came out. Mostly off, hence why I have a low post number and an old account. Anyway!

I made a Latin american survivalist inspired by all my favorite types of cowboys. I'd like him to carry a sawed off shotgun and I'm a little unsure if what I did, would be "within reason." So this is what I did.

PJSS Model 55 Shotgun
Standard Stats
Firing mode:SS
Ammo: 2b
Damage: 7P
RC: 1
Comes with Rigid stock and integrated Shockpad.
Both barrels can be fired for +1DV and -1 Recoil

Mods:
Barrel Reduction x2(changes effective range and concealment is now +4, so like the size of SMG)

I want to remove the Shockpad and stock because the gun I picture is pistol gripped. I assume it would mean my RC would go to zero, would concealment be reasonably lowered by 1 too?

Thoughts?
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Dakka Dakka
post Apr 5 2012, 09:28 PM
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I'm not sure you can take the Barrel Reduction mod more than once.

There are already pistol-sized shotguns in the books (Remington Roomsweeper, sawed off Defiance T-250), unfortunately they have lower damage.
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Elfenlied
post Apr 5 2012, 09:32 PM
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You could also take a look at the Altmayr SP. It's a Pistol Shotgun, doing the same damage like a regular shotgun.
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Dakka Dakka
post Apr 5 2012, 09:34 PM
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I forgot about the German content.
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ZeroPoint
post Apr 5 2012, 10:01 PM
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Yeah, once you start taking that much off the barrel i think you would be reducing the damage code (thus the T-250's lower damage, even if i think its a little too harsh). I would go with the Remington roomsweeper myself (perhaps with the custom look to make it look old west style all in wood). If you were staying with the PJSS, one barrel reduction would be good, but the as for the stock, its the Shock pad that provides the recoil compensation. The shoulder stock doesn't provide any extra recoil comp on anything larger than smg. So if you took that off I guess you would have a -1 recoil compensation? which i guess would be fine. Just means you would get a -2 to all shots with it (since i believe all uncompensated recoil is doubled on shotguns). -4 if you did the double shot.
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Dakka Dakka
post Apr 5 2012, 10:31 PM
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QUOTE (ZeroPoint @ Apr 6 2012, 12:01 AM) *
Yeah, once you start taking that much off the barrel i think you would be reducing the damage code (thus the T-250's lower damage, even if i think its a little too harsh). I would go with the Remington roomsweeper myself (perhaps with the custom look to make it look old west style all in wood).
A detachable magazine (which the book calls clip) does not really fit with the old west theme IMHO.
QUOTE (ZeroPoint @ Apr 6 2012, 12:01 AM) *
If you were staying with the PJSS, one barrel reduction would be good, but the as for the stock, its the Shock pad that provides the recoil compensation. The shoulder stock doesn't provide any extra recoil comp on anything larger than smg. So if you took that off I guess you would have a -1 recoil compensation? which i guess would be fine.
I think the -2 for using a twohanded firearm with one hand is more appropriate. I don't think negative recoil compensation should be possible.
QUOTE (ZeroPoint @ Apr 6 2012, 12:01 AM) *
Just means you would get a -2 to all shots with it (since i believe all uncompensated recoil is doubled on shotguns). -4 if you did the double shot.
Not quite. Only shotguns firing in burst fire mode have their uncompensated recoil doubled. The PJSS does not fire in BF mode, the mechanics only are the same as firing a short burst with only two bullets.
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ZeroPoint
post Apr 6 2012, 01:37 AM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Apr 5 2012, 06:31 PM) *
A detachable magazine (which the book calls clip) does not really fit with the old west theme IMHO.
I think the -2 for using a twohanded firearm with one hand is more appropriate. I don't think negative recoil compensation should be possible.
Not quite. Only shotguns firing in burst fire mode have their uncompensated recoil doubled. The PJSS does not fire in BF mode, the mechanics only are the same as firing a short burst with only two bullets.


First, I believe and had thought that the roomsweeper was internal magazine, not "clip".

Second, -2 for twohanded firearm in one hand sounds like a good approximation...but still wrong really cuz your still using both hands. But hey, -2 is -2.

Negative recoil compensation SHOULD be possible but perhaps not directly applied. Instead applied as a seperate negative dice pool modifier. Or perhaps thats just how it should work and certain heavy weapons (like panther assault cannons) should actually come stock with -6 recoil compensation so you have to fire it from a tripod or gyrostabalization harness to bring it back to 0 before you can go back to possitive.

And thanks for the correction on burst fire shotguns. I knew there was a rule in there somewhere but being on work for a 12 hour shift, wasn't able to scour the books i had access to for the exact ruling.
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ZeroPoint
post Apr 6 2012, 01:40 AM
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Also, I believe the Desperado out of Arsenal was supposed to have been geared towards the whole wild west look. I think it was an internal magazine though, not break action. I kind of got the impression is was a lever action.
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crash2029
post Apr 6 2012, 02:01 AM
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This is something I too have been wanting, a concealable, stockless, sawed-off double-barrel shotgun. Unfortunately the rules don't support it.
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SpellBinder
post Apr 6 2012, 06:05 AM
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If you're wanting that intimidating double-barrel shotgun look in something small and more easily hid, here's an easier way to do it. Take the Eichiro Hatamoto II from Arsenal, up the cost a few hundred nuyen and change it's ammo so it's now a 2(b), give it the "Double Barrel" shot rule the PJSS Model 55 has, and call it some heavy pistol variant like a "Boyd & Richards Double Dealer" or a "PJSS Model 22" or something. You now have a weapon with comparable range as if you could've actually given the shotgun that barrel modification twice, a +0 concealment modifier instead of a +4 (because it's a heavy pistol), the exact same damage potential (it still uses shotgun ammo), no penalty for being used with one hand (because it's a pistol!), cheaper than the PJSS Model 55, and you still have all 6 mod slots to play with.

In short you'd have something like this for roughly 1,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) or so. Maybe not exactly within the rules as written, but a heck of a lot easier to handle than a broken modded shotgun out of the book.
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Dakka Dakka
post Apr 6 2012, 07:45 AM
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QUOTE (ZeroPoint @ Apr 6 2012, 03:37 AM) *
First, I believe and had thought that the roomsweeper was internal magazine, not "clip".
Woops, I meant the Altmayr SP. It was late for me as well.

QUOTE (ZeroPoint @ Apr 6 2012, 03:37 AM) *
Negative recoil compensation SHOULD be possible but perhaps not directly applied. Instead applied as a seperate negative dice pool modifier. Or perhaps thats just how it should work and certain heavy weapons (like panther assault cannons) should actually come stock with -6 recoil compensation so you have to fire it from a tripod or gyrostabalization harness to bring it back to 0 before you can go back to possitive.
The thing is, unless you give the weapon an actual dice pool penalty, recoil never applies to single shot weapons, because the penalty from recoil does not and should not apply to the first shot and recoil only accumulates over the course of one action phase.

QUOTE (ZeroPoint @ Apr 6 2012, 03:37 AM) *
And thanks for the correction on burst fire shotguns. I knew there was a rule in there somewhere but being on work for a 12 hour shift, wasn't able to scour the books i had access to for the exact ruling.
No problem.

QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Apr 6 2012, 08:05 AM) *
If you're wanting that intimidating double-barrel shotgun look in something small and more easily hid, here's an easier way to do it. Take the Eichiro Hatamoto II from Arsenal, up the cost a few hundred nuyen and change it's ammo so it's now a 2(b), give it the "Double Barrel" shot rule the PJSS Model 55 has, and call it some heavy pistol variant like a "Boyd & Richards Double Dealer" or a "PJSS Model 22" or something. You now have a weapon with comparable range as if you could've actually given the shotgun that barrel modification twice, a +0 concealment modifier instead of a +4 (because it's a heavy pistol), the exact same damage potential (it still uses shotgun ammo), no penalty for being used with one hand (because it's a pistol!), cheaper than the PJSS Model 55, and you still have all 6 mod slots to play with.
That is not exactly legal as neither additional clip nor extended clip work on break action weapons. What you could maybe do, is make a Hatamoto with an underbarrel Hatamoto. One of them will have lost 3 modslots though and there is no rule for firing both weapons at the same time. The (un)concealability of that weapon would be ridiculous and would have to be houseruled anyway.

If a player would approach me asking for a double-barreled sawed-off shotgun, I'd give it the stats of the Altmayr except capacity 2(b) and that's it. Such a weapon would hardly be unbalanced.
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Scythe31337
post Apr 6 2012, 08:17 AM
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I really appreciate this, it was very very helpful. I will have to do some tweaking for sure now.
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crash2029
post Apr 7 2012, 08:37 AM
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What book is the Altmayr SP in?
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Dakka Dakka
post Apr 7 2012, 08:47 AM
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In the German version of Arsenal or here. Sengir was kind enough to translate the stuff and put it in a pdf.
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The Jopp
post Apr 7 2012, 04:36 PM
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Sounds reasonable - and far more restrained than my tri-barreled shotgun (Sawn off barrel and shoulder stock removed.)

I used the rules for barrel reduction in regard to the shoulderstock but also added that the weapon have double uncompensated recoil since you REALLY need a shoulder stock on that kind of rifle as they tend to kick as a mule.
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Dakka Dakka
post Apr 7 2012, 05:18 PM
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Don't forget that uncompensated recoil never applies to single shot weapons - except for the narrative. Asault cannons are also supposed to have a huge kick, but the shooter never suffers a penalty for it.

You could work with stun damage though - similar to that stupid optional rule from Arsenal. Maybe something like suffer (7-STR)S for each shot.
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Glyph
post Apr 7 2012, 10:02 PM
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The Remington Roomsweeper and the short-barrel version of the Defiance T-250 are both sawed-off shotguns, and both do heavy pistol damage - I would treat a sawed-off double-barrel shotgun the same way, except it would be a break-action weapon holding two shots, and using the same rules as the Walther Palm Pistol for firing both barrels at once (+1 DV, -1 Recoil modifier), and I would give it the same cost as the Remington Roomsweeper. The only shotgun-style weapons that keep the 7P damage are single-shot firing mode weapons, so I would stick with heavy pistol damage for the sawed-off PJSS Model 55 Shotgun.
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 7 2012, 10:21 PM
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Yeah, there doesn't seem to be any good reason for the full-powered version beyond 'I want it'.
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The Jopp
post Apr 13 2012, 07:01 AM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Apr 7 2012, 06:18 PM) *
Don't forget that uncompensated recoil never applies to single shot weapons - except for the narrative. Asault cannons are also supposed to have a huge kick, but the shooter never suffers a penalty for it.

You could work with stun damage though - similar to that stupid optional rule from Arsenal. Maybe something like suffer (7-STR)S for each shot.


Nah, I would allow for the recoil to follou up to the next complex action or combat turn - not raw but sensible. If you spend time to fire the gun in your action, suffer massive recoil modifier then it WILL impact your accuracy on the next shot regardless if the weapon can only fire once per round.
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remmus
post Apr 13 2012, 08:33 AM
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Are there any official rules for barrel reduction? Been looking threw the 4e books, been musing on stock och barrel cutting a PPJS elephant rifle for a future runner.
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The Jopp
post Apr 13 2012, 10:00 AM
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QUOTE (remmus @ Apr 13 2012, 09:33 AM) *
Are there any official rules for barrel reduction? Been looking threw the 4e books, been musing on stock och barrel cutting a PPJS elephant rifle for a future runner.


Yup, in Arsenal they have weapon mod rules for removing the barrel but not for stock removal on rifles. I used the same rules and added +1 for concealability and +1 to recoil for Stock removal.
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