Shadowrun 2050 4A - What would you do Options

[snowRaven]

Don't know many computer techs, do you? TRON is the bible for most of them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

And rightly so! You can't get much more 80s cyberpunk when it comes to VR really...

[kzt]

Umm, that was 30 years ago. What is your target demo? If it's for 40-60 year old cyberpunk fans then TRON as a model makes perfect sense. If you have a different demo in mind then you might consider that rules that make sense to someone who has used real computers since before they could talk might be a clever innovation.

Given that every version of computer rules in SR has been essentially unplayable also suggests to me that putting out another version of the traditional incomprehensible TRON worshiping crap is probably not a good idea.

[CanRay]

Computer rules from EVERY Cyberpunk game have been "essentially unplayable". SR4A comes the closest possible yet in my mind. And it still keeps the TRON worshiping crap as well.

[ravensmuse]

I can't say I'm surprised. What I am surprised by is the amount of...apathy everyone else on the internet has had about this. The couple places I figured would be intrigued / discussing it are mum, and talking more about the video game kickstarter.

But no, I'm not surprised that current crew has suddenly leapt upon the idea of doing a retro-2050s buzz. They've pretty much admitted that they're not fans of the direction Peter Taylor steered the Shadowrun ship (see whatever thread it was a few months back where some of the writers described a game I and a good number of other people have never played), and surprise surprise, they're making their first full on attempt to go backwards. Yawn.

The hobby is graying, and they're starting to get nostalgic about the good old days. You've seen it start with the OSR, and now you're seeing it migrate outwards. Its like old comic fans getting their hands on Marvel / DC characters - keep what they like, screw whatever interesting tacks have been taken since they first started reading comics.

I'm already voting with my wallet either way. I haven't bought a product since the Catocalypse a few years back, and I'll just keep on keeping on, I guess.

ETA:

Computer rules from EVERY Cyberpunk game have been "essentially unplayable". SR4A comes the closest possible yet in my mind. And it still keeps the TRON worshiping crap as well.

I gotta ask - why is this a good thing?

I had to sit down and physically write down every single rule - spread across the whole of SR4a - to even begin to understand the hacking / rigging rules. To run an NPC. Other players of mine have expressed interest in running the game, but are stymied by a rules set that is just...overwhelming.

Hell, the only thing keeping me from trying out the Shadowrun / Mouseguard hack I read awhile back is a) the price of Mouseguard (beautiful and well-written as it is) and b) my players not being as interested in trying indie games as I am.

[Mirilion]

Why is everyone so gloomy? I can't be the only one who's totally excited about everything that went down these last few weeks, right?

As for the matrix, the purpose of the rules is to facilitate fun. More realistic matrix rules will probably not be fun, but if they somehow manage to simplify them a bit the rules will be much better than they are right now. I personally love geeking out over interesting and complex gaming systems, but some of my friends who love the idea of technomancers, for example, are really dissapointed by the complexity of the rules.

[CanRay]

Gloomy? Because this is either going to be awesome, or rape childhoods.

Think about the South Park Episode about the new Indiana Jones movie... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Bigity]

Yes. It would be like remaking the Goonies.

[counterveil]

Well, you can count me amongst the excited. When I was starting 4A I found that I had all these old adventures SR1=>SR3 that I had never run so I just decided to do 2050 in 4A anyway. This would make it easier. Crossing my fingers for more comprehensive / easy to use Matrix rules though; I've never run into a set that I like.

[kzt]

As for the matrix, the purpose of the rules is to facilitate fun. More realistic matrix rules will probably not be fun, but if they somehow manage to simplify them a bit the rules will be much better than they are right now. I personally love geeking out over interesting and complex gaming systems, but some of my friends who love the idea of technomancers, for example, are really dissapointed by the complexity of the rules.

You don't want realism, you want verisimilitude. And you want the rules on computers to makes sense to someone who has literally used a computer since before they could talk. The whole doublethink insanity you have to go through with the current matrix rules makes even trying to figure out what the rules are tying to say hugely painful. Computer rules based on the thoughts of a guy who never used a computer and wrote entire novels on manual typewriters in the PC/MAC word processor era has pretty much reached the sell-by date.

In other words, you need to throw out the anachronistic TRONism and Gibson worship and replace it with ideas that make sense and are at least vaguely plausible extensions of where tech is going. Of course, this is easy to say and harder to do.

[CanRay]

Yeah, sorry, but I think VR is here to stay.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Yeah, sorry, but I think VR is here to stay.

Frankly, I wouldn't want VR to go anywhere. I like the thought of jacking in and going into hot sim, full-immersion, Enter the Matrix style virtual reality

[kzt]

Actually that isn't a problem really.

The problems with the system and reality starts with the idea that in order to access a random host that random host will automatically "run your icon" on it. Essentially you are feeding it some arbitrary computer code and it is executing it. Having a remote system execute arbitrary code is what malware is trying to achieve, in SR that's what you get by default. Isn't it odd how people in SR have such a bad time with hackers? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That is really just a fluff change, but it is a kind of important one.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Nobody ever said that Matrix architecture made sense from a computer security point of view. Perhaps it's not even intended to - after all, the Crash Worm (the first one) wiped out all of our "modern" computers and it somehow got through every firewall known to man, most of which were likely smart enough to say "lolno" to random connections trying to run executable data.


It could just be that by the time of the 2070s, telling computers not to run things that any random wanker tells them to run is a losing game. Otherwise cracking a node the way we do it - entering it and smashing the IC down - would be impossible, since the defending node could simply say "you want me to run an attack program that damages my firewall? lol no."


I don't have a problem with this.

[Mirilion]

This keeps coming up everywhere. Two examples - archaeologists and snipers.

Archaeologists find fantasy cultures silly because storytellers don't usually give them clear styles, and when you enter a tomb you just find unrelated imagery and monsters.
Snipers usually find rifle ranges in games ridiculous, because they can shoot much farther in real life. I actually had a couple of friends that were combat veterans argue this with me.

Game developers just try to make things fun, not realistic and boring. No one tells you that you have to work insanely hard to locate a tomb that isn't just a pit full of bones, and you really don't want the game to include sniping that much - "your head assplodes, make a new character".

[Ryu]

I´ve lost another game to new dark ages before. Good that nostalgia is looking back and does not meddle with the future. The whole project could be a Retro-SR pdf instead of a new main book, giving SR4 rules sections for old modules.

- separating the matrix (wired) from rigging (wireless) again will be the hardest part.
- The mage/shaman thingy should stay in the past, so no trouble
- one would need a tech timeline and an event timeline

I can't say I'm surprised. What I am surprised by is the amount of...apathy everyone else on the internet has had about this. The couple places I figured would be intrigued / discussing it are mum, and talking more about the video game kickstarter.

But no, I'm not surprised that current crew has suddenly leapt upon the idea of doing a retro-2050s buzz. They've pretty much admitted that they're not fans of the direction Peter Taylor steered the Shadowrun ship (see whatever thread it was a few months back where some of the writers described a game I and a good number of other people have never played), and surprise surprise, they're making their first full on attempt to go backwards. Yawn.

The hobby is graying, and they're starting to get nostalgic about the good old days. You've seen it start with the OSR, and now you're seeing it migrate outwards. Its like old comic fans getting their hands on Marvel / DC characters - keep what they like, screw whatever interesting tacks have been taken since they first started reading comics.

I'm already voting with my wallet either way. I haven't bought a product since the Catocalypse a few years back, and I'll just keep on keeping on, I guess.

Do you have any more hints to find the plot-discussion-thread? As for the apathy, yes. We self-adopted a few of the old modules, but else there is little to no interest in going back.

[ravensmuse]

I´ve lost another game to new dark ages before. Good that nostalgia is looking back and does not meddle with the future. The whole project could be a Retro-SR pdf instead of a new main book, giving SR4 rules sections for old modules.

Sorry dude, I'm trying to parse this paragraph. Can you repeat? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Do you have any more hints to find the plot-discussion-thread? As for the apathy, yes. We self-adopted a few of the old modules, but else there is little to no interest in going back.

Start from here and work forward, noting some freelance responses. Bull, Patrick, Critias.

Patrick's post is specifically where I turned my head and went, "bwuh?". He starts talking about how augmentation is a thing you don't make a choice about and it only leads into a downward spiral of needing more to survive....which kind of contradicts many NPCs out there that have basic aug's in order to do their job or convenience, and they don't seem to have any weird cyberpsychosis thing going on. There's also no rules in the text about this - you take an Essence and nuyen loss, and that's pretty much it.

(Neurosis gets it, to balance things out here).

It's fine if that's a game that they want to write and play. It's just not the game that I want to play or buy.

So to go back to topic at hand, I'm not surprised by a release of a 2050 supplemental book, nor would I be surprised if suddenly it becomes its own line. I'm just surprised no one's been discussing it.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Start from here and work forward, noting some freelance responses. Bull, Patrick, Critias.

Patrick's post is specifically where I turned my head and went, "bwuh?". He starts talking about how augmentation is a thing you don't make a choice about and it only leads into a downward spiral of needing more to survive....which kind of contradicts many NPCs out there that have basic aug's in order to do their job or convenience, and they don't seem to have any weird cyberpsychosis thing going on. There's also no rules in the text about this - you take an Essence and nuyen loss, and that's pretty much it.

(Neurosis gets it, to balance things out here).

It's fine if that's a game that they want to write and play. It's just not the game that I want to play or buy.

So to go back to topic at hand, I'm not surprised by a release of a 2050 supplemental book, nor would I be surprised if suddenly it becomes its own line. I'm just surprised no one's been discussing it.

Yeah, wow. Patrick's post... Wow.

Sure, some people might have gotten their chrome the Adam Jensen way, but not everybody. Not by a long shot. Not when losing your eyes and getting brand-spanking new rating 4 cybereyes with all the trimmings and a datajack is a long lunch-break at a Nu Yu boutique.

[Mirilion]

Bull's post... I just don't agree with it. I don't really care about how the CGL folk meant for their world to feel, and here's how I see it.

The new world is a nightmare and a total prison for your mind and body. People work 12 hours a day, every day, and in their spare time they would rather lose themselves in some AR or VR paradise than do anything important. Children grow up alienated from their parents, their friends are mostly online (hang out in 4chan /b/ sometimes, in 2070 it's like that ALL THE TIME), everything is totally screwed.

People are warned about the dangers of identity theft and stuff like that, but they don't ever realize how FUCKED they are, because when someone's SIN is taken from him the crooked cops that arrest him sell his organs to tamanous and his existence has been deleted. The corps only implemented wireless because it helps them gain more power over the herds, they don't care about security. Most hackers either work for them or are hunted down like dogs - not all are "Slamm-O!" level. All the causes and all the hype you see on the trids, EVERYTHING is controlled by government and corp media, big brother sees you all the time and there's very little privacy. So all the info you get about something with your fancy AR image links and DNI was put there by corp content editors and designed by corp sociologists.

ONLY the SINless can find any sort of freedom from all this, and most of them live in urban jungles controlled by gangs anyway.
The illusion of freedom and awesome tech is spoon fed to you by megacorp PR in order to make you a slave. Freedom is for shadowrunners or others who are SINless but live inside the machine without being part of it.

[Ryu]

Sorry dude, I'm trying to parse this paragraph. Can you repeat? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

1st thought: I´m happy that they are writing a 2050 book instead of bending the 2070 scenario to be different. Mechwarrior: Dark Age ruined BT for me.

2nd thought: Since the main selling point is IMO using the old material from FASA/FanPro times, an "Alternate Setting" book would be stronger. Less re-printing of hopefully identical rules, more place for actual conversions and new stuff. I´m not buying a new main book.



Thanks for the links. I shall now refrain from de-railing this thread. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Sengir]

Otherwise cracking a node the way we do it - entering it and smashing the IC down - would be impossible, since the defending node could simply say "you want me to run an attack program that damages my firewall?

The Attack program does not run on the target node, the target node only gets fed the data from the attack program. I tend to think of it as a modern Metasploit (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Bigity]

The reversion of the identical mage/shaman/other systems to different mechanics (at least on the spirit front) is pretty ciritical for me to buy this product. Otherwise I'll still with what I already have.

With those and Matrix rules for deckers, I'm happy to purchase it and any future retro-style stuff.

[KarmaInferno]

Start from here and work forward, noting some freelance responses. Bull, Patrick, Critias.

Patrick's post is specifically where I turned my head and went, "bwuh?". He starts talking about how augmentation is a thing you don't make a choice about and it only leads into a downward spiral of needing more to survive....which kind of contradicts many NPCs out there that have basic aug's in order to do their job or convenience, and they don't seem to have any weird cyberpsychosis thing going on. There's also no rules in the text about this - you take an Essence and nuyen loss, and that's pretty much it.

(Neurosis gets it, to balance things out here).

Here's the thing.

Patrick's post was written from a genre perspective.

Neurosis wrote from a player perspective.

They're both right.

Augmentation in classic Cyberpunk has always been a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. Having to continually get augmented more and more, just to keep up with the competition, is a pretty classic trope of the genre. As is the increasing de-humanization that comes with augmentation.

Cyberpunk stories are rife with characters that get some for whatever reason, and find that they're now saddled with sometimes crippling drawbacks they weren't expecting. As befits a dystopian setting, augmentation is that "quick path to power" which always ends in tears. Even those minor side characters that don't get heavily augmented, like the sarariman with the accounting implants, or the construction worker with an industrial jackhammer cyberarm, their implants serve as shackles enslaving them to corporate masters, even if they don't realize it.

This is why most Cyberpunk games place additional 'cost' on augmentation. Whether it's cyberpsychosis, or essence loss, or whatever, you lose essential humanity when you get metal to replace your meat. If you're playing a game where getting cybernetic implants does NOT somehow eat your soul, you may be enjoying yourself, who knows, but you're not playing a Cyberpunk game.

PLAYER motivations are different, however.

I am reminded of the scene from the movie 'Last Action Hero', where the protagonist Jack Slater finally meets Arnold Schwarzenegger. After considering his life so far, all Jack can say is, "I have always hated you."

Players want to play a cool character. They want to be powerful or stylish or badass, and often all of the above. RPG games are all about escapism, after all, so who wants to play Sammy Sad Sack, who is being forced into a life of pain and heartbreak and is doomed to die a whimpering death in some back alley gutter?

The trick is, of course, to somehow maintain that dystopian feel while still catering to player wants.



-k

[CanRay]

Which is why I want to play. I want a dystopian feel as a player.

[snowRaven]

Players want to play a cool character. They want to be powerful or stylish or badass, and often all of the above. RPG games are all about escapism, after all, so who wants to play Sammy Sad Sack, who is being forced into a life of pain and heartbreak and is doomed to die a whimpering death in some back alley gutter?

The trick is, of course, to somehow maintain that dystopian feel while still catering to player wants.

Which is why I want to play. I want a dystopian feel as a player.

I'm with you there CanRay...

If I ever got the chance to play an actual game as a player, I would definately try to make something along the lines of 'Sammy Sad Sack' as KarmaInferno puts it.

I've always been drawn to the downtrodden, dystopic underdog who fights against all odds only to acheive a small symbolic victory and then die in the end...

[CanRay]

What, you want an actual victory? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)