This Old Drone, Obsolete - Really? Options

[Neraph]

This Old Drone has many interesting drones in it, and at reasonable prices too. They also have two new upgrades: Obsolescent, and Obsolete.

The upgrades listed below are intended to simulate the challenges of utilizing older technology in Shadowrun.

These two upgrades are listed in the Standard Upgrades section of those drones which have them. Now, I would like to remind you of the rules for Standard Upgrades:

Standard Upgrades: In this entry you will find a list of vehicle modifications (p. 131) that the vehicle automatically comes equipped with at no extra cost. These standard upgrades use the same rules as given for vehicle modifications, but they don't count toward the vehicle's slot limit and the vehicle itself still counts as unmodified. Other restrictions, like the maximum amount of weapon mounts, still apply. Removing a standard upgrade does not provide additional modification slots. The changes to a vehicle's stats due to its standard upgrades are already calculated into its stats list.

This takes the usual modification test and requires the tools mentioned in the modification description. However, the threshold is halved and there are no further materials required.

(emphasis mine)
Now the description of Obsolescent and Obsolete do not mention tools required, skill, or test (they would be up to the GM to determine), but the rules for modifications do say that those standard upgrades can be removed like any others, thereby restoring the drone's Device Rating to something much more respectable.

I have the mental image of someone buying a Predator drone, popping its "hood," removing a black box and tossing it aside, and that Predator's Device Rating jumps up from a 2 to a 5.

DISCLAIMER: What I posted above is absolutely correct and legal, per RAW. This only works because the writers of This Old Drone wrote Obsolescent/Obsolete as Standard Upgrades, and did not create a new category of vehicle trait (they came close in the sidebar) and simply left it as a vehicle's version of a Weakness. This brings back fond memories of fully submersible aircraft carriers and superfreighters.

[Mantis]

Our answer was to apply common sense and just say those can't actually be removed. It is certainly a bit of a mess up on the authors part but not insurmountable. I suppose this is what happens when you don't have vehicle creation rules but try to work in traits or qualities or whatever that really properly belong in a vehicle creation system, rather than a vehicle modification system.

[Yerameyahu]

Ridiculous. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Hida Tsuzua]

Now the description of Obsolescent and Obsolete do not mention tools required, skill, or test (they would be up to the GM to determine), but the rules for modifications do say that those standard upgrades can be removed like any others, thereby restoring the drone's Device Rating to something much more respectable.

I have the mental image of someone buying a Predator drone, popping its "hood," removing a black box and tossing it aside, and that Predator's Device Rating jumps up from a 2 to a 5.

While it's a funny picture, I'm not sure if it matters at all. At the end of the day, the result is "RAW how hard is to upgrade a Predator depends on the GM" which was the case anyways. Sure it'll be free this way, but the man hours is completely GM's judgement. Thus if the GM's cool with you upgrading the drone, you can do it. If he's not, then he can easily make it nearly impossible or just not worth it by setting the threshold to over 9000 or something.

Anyways, upping the Device Rating isn't the real reason to want to remove obsolete. You want to remove obsolete so you can command rig it*. After you slave it** and command it with your command program, the drone's ratings barely matter (outside the cheap to upgrade sensor rating). Black Knights are amazing if you have a good way to control them. It's a 14 body drone that's the size of a normal large drone. Give it legs and 20 armor/10 smart armor, and it can go a lot of places that a tank/bus can't.

*- You could make the argument that "incompatible with current remote control rigs and AR technology" means that you command rig it in VR. However in SR4A, it's actually referred to Remote Control. You could say that the remote control rig isn't part of remote controlling a drone, but I wouldn't want to make that argument.

**- This is the reason why I find all of the "old drones get the hack!" comments in This Old Drone to be funny. You really ought to be slaving your drones anyways so they can join your tacnet (and for defense). I guess it can get spoofed, but that's always the case with drones.

[Neraph]

While it's a funny picture, I'm not sure if it matters at all. At the end of the day, the result is "RAW how hard is to upgrade a Predator depends on the GM" which was the case anyways. Sure it'll be free this way, but the man hours is completely GM's judgement. Thus if the GM's cool with you upgrading the drone, you can do it. If he's not, then he can easily make it nearly impossible or just not worth it by setting the threshold to over 9000 or something.

Anyways, upping the Device Rating isn't the real reason to want to remove obsolete. You want to remove obsolete so you can command rig it*. After you slave it** and command it with your command program, the drone's ratings barely matter (outside the cheap to upgrade sensor rating). Black Knights are amazing if you have a good way to control them. It's a 14 body drone that's the size of a normal large drone. Give it legs and 20 armor/10 smart armor, and it can go a lot of places that a tank/bus can't.

*- You could make the argument that "incompatible with current remote control rigs and AR technology" means that you command rig it in VR. However in SR4A, it's actually referred to Remote Control. You could say that the remote control rig isn't part of remote controlling a drone, but I wouldn't want to make that argument.

**- This is the reason why I find all of the "old drones get the hack!" comments in This Old Drone to be funny. You really ought to be slaving your drones anyways so they can join your tacnet (and for defense). I guess it can get spoofed, but that's always the case with drones.

You're missing the point. The point is that Obsolete/Obsolescent are Standard Upgrades, which means they can be removed and the drone loses their effects, which means you don't have to "upgrade" their Device Ratings - the DR of the drone returns to what it should be because the modification that was altering it is no longer present.

[ShadowDragon8685]

You're missing the point. The point is that Obsolete/Obsolescent are Standard Upgrades, which means they can be removed and the drone loses their effects, which means you don't have to "upgrade" their Device Ratings - the DR of the drone returns to what it should be because the modification that was altering it is no longer present.

If you want to be funny about it, this is exactly the case. The drones are suffering from a bad case of Planned Obsolescence which means that the manufacturer installed an atomic-decay clock device which steadily degrades the drone's systems as time marches on, to force you to buy a new one. Restoring the drone is as simple as popping the hood, taking this device and heaving it into the sound.

[Eratosthenes]

Now the description of Obsolescent and Obsolete do not mention tools required, skill, or test (they would be up to the GM to determine), but the rules for modifications do say that those standard upgrades can be removed like any others, thereby restoring the drone's Device Rating to something much more respectable.

You yourself said that the costs of removing the upgrade would be up to the GM. Removing the Obsolete, or Obsolescent upgrades would, at a minimum, require replacing the drone's Response/Signal modules, and upgrading its system software (System/Firewall). For an Obsolete drone/device, it would likely require a complete overhaul. In any event, the work required would be up to the GM. The books do not give any hard and fast rule for determining this.

No where does it say that you can remove the upgrades, for free or minimal cost, and get a shiny drone with the latest specs, which your post implies.

[Yerameyahu]

I certainly agree that this (the idea that these are 'mods' and are removable under *any* circumstances) would be one of the more salient Broken Rules to date, right up there with amphibious ghost aircraft carriers. It's lucky that no one is bound by such rules, unless the GM is nuts. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Thanee]

A modification can be removed to get back the slots it took up and slim down the item’s appearance.

There is no mentioning of removing a modification for your purposes, so it is an assumption, that you can remove it, but not a rule.

Removing a standard upgrade does not provide additional modification slots.

While this certainly implies that standard upgrades can be removed, it does not have to be the case for all of them.

Just because there are rules about how to remove a modification (or upgrade), doesn't mean that all modifications (or upgrades) can be removed.

It is also a pretty big assumption, that something clearly labeled "Vehicle Trait" uses the exact same rules as "Vehicle Modifications", just because it shares the same list ("Standard Upgrades") in the drone's description; especially when the rules about standard upgrades say "In this entry you will find a list of vehicle modifications ..." with no mentioning of "Vehicle Traits". A "Vehicle Trait" is obviously meant to be something different than a "Vehicle Modification", otherwise they would have used the existing terminology here.

But what might that difference be? We are left to guess here...

The rules are hardly as clear as you say and it is up to GM's decision, whether this specific upgrade can be removed or not, and the GM's decision in this case is quite obvious: No! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[Eratosthenes]

A more salient argument, along these lines, would be to look at the "Light Than Air" modification.

Adding it to a vehicle reduces accel/speed by half, operation time is dramatically increased, etc. etc.

By this argument, you could remove the Lighter Than Air mod from the Luftschiffbau Zeppelin LZ-2065 and get...a what? A conventional aircraft with accel/speed of 10/20? A ground vehicle with accel/speed 10/20?

[Halinn]

A more salient argument, along these lines, would be to look at the "Light Than Air" modification.

Adding it to a vehicle reduces accel/speed by half, operation time is dramatically increased, etc. etc.

By this argument, you could remove the Lighter Than Air mod from the Luftschiffbau Zeppelin LZ-2065 and get...a what? A conventional aircraft with accel/speed of 10/20? A ground vehicle with accel/speed 10/20?

More likely a crashed wreck that used to be a zeppelin (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[ShadowDragon8685]

A more salient argument, along these lines, would be to look at the "Light Than Air" modification.

Adding it to a vehicle reduces accel/speed by half, operation time is dramatically increased, etc. etc.

By this argument, you could remove the Lighter Than Air mod from the Luftschiffbau Zeppelin LZ-2065 and get...a what? A conventional aircraft with accel/speed of 10/20? A ground vehicle with accel/speed 10/20?

A colossal waste of time and energy.

[Ears]

Well, if you take away the gas bags, you end up with a bus powered by frigging huge propellors. Inconspicuous it is not.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Well, if you take away the gas bags, you end up with a bus powered by frigging huge propellors. Inconspicuous it is not.

It might, however, just be awesome enough to exist, for some reason or another. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Ears]

Especially if you put it into reverse and drive through a horde of zombies. "My bus slices and dices, what about yours?"

[Yerameyahu]

Put on the hovercraft mod: airboat!

[KarmaInferno]

You yourself said that the costs of removing the upgrade would be up to the GM. Removing the Obsolete, or Obsolescent upgrades would, at a minimum, require replacing the drone's Response/Signal modules, and upgrading its system software (System/Firewall). For an Obsolete drone/device, it would likely require a complete overhaul. In any event, the work required would be up to the GM. The books do not give any hard and fast rule for determining this.

No where does it say that you can remove the upgrades, for free or minimal cost, and get a shiny drone with the latest specs, which your post implies.

The point behind these posts is to bring up a problem in the text of a printed rule.

Of course the GM can fix or clarify it however he wants in his home games. The GM can do anything.

That doesn't mean, however, that there isn't a problem with the printed rule.



-k

[Yerameyahu]

And that's what Neraph means when he says there's an opportunity with a printed rule. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Thanee]

Seriously, it is so obvious how this is meant to work, that it really cannot be called a "problem". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[Yerameyahu]

No excuse for laziness! Hehe.

[Neraph]

No excuse for laziness! Hehe.

Exactly!

When you make rules you need to be aware of the rules. I am simply pointing out what is allowed under the rules that have been printed. By the cut-and-dry-est, most raw RAW, you can remove the Obsolescent/Obsolete modification because of a technicality. If that technicality had not been written (something as easy as making a new "Vehicle Trait" list, similar to what they intended but far away from what occurred) then there would be no issue.

[toturi]

Exactly!

When you make rules you need to be aware of the rules. I am simply pointing out what is allowed under the rules that have been printed. By the cut-and-dry-est, most raw RAW, you can remove the Obsolescent/Obsolete modification because of a technicality. If that technicality had not been written (something as easy as making a new "Vehicle Trait" list, similar to what they intended but far away from what occurred) then there would be no issue.

I do not see the problem actually. Yes, it is RAW but I do not think there is a problem with actually being able to remove Obsolescent/Obsolete from a vehicle.

[UmaroVI]

I'm not seeing a problem either. Okay, so you can update an obselete/obselescent drone, given an amount of time set by the GM and a level of tools set by the GM. The problem here is...what, exactly? I mean, it would be nice to have times listed rather than "the GM makes it up," but for a CGL product this barely even qualifies as a mild oversight.

[Yerameyahu]

It doesn't really make sense, though. It's not a mod, and 'removing it' entails *adding* things. There should be a way to update old stuff, including time, skill, and cost, but the 'removing a mod' mechanic is just wrong.

[Udoshi]

DISCLAIMER: What I posted above is absolutely correct and legal, per RAW. This only works because the writers of This Old Drone wrote Obsolescent/Obsolete as Standard Upgrades, and did not create a new category of vehicle trait (they came close in the sidebar) and simply left it as a vehicle's version of a Weakness.

This is amazing and I love it.

Worth noting: this same trick can be used to give an iBall back its wheels if you actually want it to use the Speed/Accel its statted for. I like mine with gecko tips.

Put on the hovercraft mod: airboat!

My friend used this to make a flying tank out of the Patrol-1, by the way.

Hydrofoil doubles the base speed before LTA cuts it down, and a special machinery to arrange it upsidown so it can shoot at the earth.