Naturally limiting magician characters, without it seeming like your picking on them Options

[thorya]

Well, how hard would it be for a Corp to say "you all have to carry your badge on you at all times" (yes, i have to deal with this all the time at work).

Then all they have to do is spend a lil time and (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) on making the badges give off a faint signature in astral. Cant be that much more expensive then making a keycard.

The spirit could be told to look for those lacking that signature.

Granted, there is a way around it, but then, there should always be a way around the security measures, otherwise whats the point of playing? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You would do it with astral pigments. Arsenal p. 64. It shouldn't be hard for corporations to use something like that to create cheap identification cards. Possibly something that changes the pigments pattern based upon some preprogrammed pattern so they're harder to copy.

[rlor]

Well, so the mage is using concealment and the drones will just not notice him.
Or if it does not matter if the get into a fight, he sends a force 8 spirit to fuck the drones up, while getting the job done.

While 6 drones will do damage to the sam, the mage will maybe suffer one or two points of drain, the most...

The sam will waste ammo, get his armor damaged.... The mage? Nothing.

The example was for a firefight. Both characters could stealth past the drones or hack them or what not, they're not a tough threat. And if a mage is optimized enough to summon force 8 spirits without worry (assuming the GM has the spirits roll edge for being higher force than the mage's magic) then the street sam can easily dodge/soak all the incoming damage from that level of drones. Or speaking on the rest of the mundane category a rigger could just send in his own decked out steel lynx (or pick a better drone from one of the other books) that would laugh off that damage and blow them up in short order without worrying about any physical drain at all.

As for concealment, I didn't think it really helped out against things like motion sensors etc (as they don't use the perception system). Using things like pressure plates, door sensors, trip wires, drones, etc are about as difficult to deal with for both parties unless they're moonlighting as a hacker. Especially if you combine them with booby traps to each of those sensing methods.

Don't get me wrong, I think that spirits/mages are overpowered and towards the "bullshit" category of archetypes. I think that generally you need a mage to beat a mage (my conclusion to a thread I made as a first post here). I think that you can provide stumbling blocks though that a mage will have to work through at the same level as the rest of the party. A smart mage might breeze through them but I think in many cases a smart mundane could do much the same.

As a note we play under the interpretation that Full Auto adds its DV to piercing armor while BF does not. That probably changes the ease at which spirits can be destroyed in our game.

[D2F]

The example was for a firefight. Both characters could stealth past the drones or hack them or what not, they're not a tough threat. And if a mage is optimized enough to summon force 8 spirits without worry (assuming the GM has the spirits roll edge for being higher force than the mage's magic) then the street sam can easily dodge/soak all the incoming damage from that level of drones. Or speaking on the rest of the mundane category a rigger could just send in his own decked out steel lynx (or pick a better drone from one of the other books) that would laugh off that damage and blow them up in short order without worrying about any physical drain at all.

As for concealment, I didn't think it really helped out against things like motion sensors etc (as they don't use the perception system). Using things like pressure plates, door sensors, trip wires, drones, etc are about as difficult to deal with for both parties unless they're moonlighting as a hacker. Especially if you combine them with booby traps to each of those sensing methods.

Don't get me wrong, I think that spirits/mages are overpowered and towards the "bullshit" category of archetypes. I think that generally you need a mage to beat a mage (my conclusion to a thread I made as a first post here). I think that you can provide stumbling blocks though that a mage will have to work through at the same level as the rest of the party. A smart mage might breeze through them but I think in many cases a smart mundane could do much the same.

As a note we play under the interpretation that Full Auto adds its DV to piercing armor while BF does not. I think I remember that being a minority opinion? This greatly changes how force <9 spirits are dealt with (FA with APDS makes them fairly trivial in comparison to needing things like laser weapons, SnS, chunky salsa grenades effects, toxins, etc) in our games.

You need to hit the spirit to deal damage to it. Facing a F8 Spirit with concealment (especially a free one, but that's besides the point) will make that far from "trivial".

[rlor]

You need to hit the spirit to deal damage to it. Facing a F8 Spirit with concealment (especially a free one, but that's besides the point) will make that far from "trivial".

You caught me before I edited my post as I figured that would be a needless point of contention. If the spirit is doing anything other than hiding like attacking then that concealment doesn't mean much (-8 dice to a perception check is not hard at a threshold of 0-2).

*Edit - And as a note I was talking about our games. Our GM loved magic greatly and so from pretty much 400 BP 10 karma and onwards we as a completely mundane party had to deal with things like multiple force 6+ spirits stacking concealment with the invis suits (AFB so don't remember the name) and wading into combat and dealing with things like 8+ force free spirits with mundane means (some of the methods offered up here on dumpshock). So we were a bit more specialized to handle things like concealment, hardened armor, improved invis, etc.

[Chainsaw Samurai]

*Edit - And as a note I was talking about our games. Our GM loved magic greatly and so from pretty much 400 BP 10 karma and onwards we as a completely mundane party had to deal with things like multiple force 6+ spirits stacking concealment with the invis suits (AFB so don't remember the name) and wading into combat and dealing with things like crazy high force free spirits with mundane means (some of the methods offered up here on dumpshock). So we were a bit more specialized to handle things like concealment, hardened armor, improved invis, etc.

Your GM sounds like a dick.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Your caracter cannot astrally project. It cannot summon spirits. It cannot Astrally Perceive, without spending one of its adept power points for the astral perception power (further reducing its actual magic rating).
Your character is not a mage.

Which is irrelevant for the discussion. He does have Astral Sight, so he can perceive when needed. And While Projection is nice, it is far from the "I Win" button that some presuppose. Just because he is not OPTIMAL to YOU does not mean that he is not OPTIMAL to ME. That character has FAR more utility than any other mage I have ever seen (though he does lack combat spells, currently... But that is what Firearms and other, heavier weapons/options are for anyways), and when he gets more karma, it will go up drastically (50 More spells, after all, provides a HUGE amount of Versatiliy). But I have a simple Question for you. Currently, the Mage I play is a Black Magician, following Adversary. Whould he have more utility (and thus more power... or better optimization...), in your eyes, if he were a Voodoo Houngon?

I have no matrix, no hacker can harm me. I have no magic defenses (as you proposed), I am wide open for magic intrusion. Where is that the same again?

The difference is when you need the security. If you need Matrix Security, it is often much more expensivce, infrastructure wise, than magical Security is. Some things may not actually need Magical Security, and then the mage can show how tough he is. So what. If it did not need magical security, why was a mage hired to breach it? Same for the Matrix Security. If there is none, you would never hire a Hacker to penetrate it, now would you?

If by "combat mage" you mean a mage focused on combat spells, then yes, he is vastly underusing his potential.

Why is his potential vastly underused? He is exceedingly valuable in his niche. Why must a Mage cover all Niches? Why is that a requirement? He is using his potential as a COMBAT MAGE (which does not necessaruily imply that all he has is combat spells, whcih he does not), with a few support spells. And again, to cover ALL the Niches requires a stupid amount of Karma.

And this is relevant to the discussion of game balancing and mages, how?

Because it IS a measure of Power. And usually one that Mage has a very hard time competing in due to his magical focus.

That's a false analogy and you know it. Ally spirits are a luxury itema nd not every mage will get one (hell I would even go as far as to say no sensible mage would get one, as they are a HUGE karma dump, with little return). And depending on Tradition, skills can be compensated for by critter powers.

Ally spirits are a way to gain power without the crutch of a Focus. Yes, they are their own crutch, of a sort, but they can be extremely versatile and useful to the mage. Far more so than any Focus (or even a combination of Foci) could ever be.

How did I get that implication? By your portraial of his focus and abilities. If he is indeed focussed on combat and support spells, he is not powerful and he never truly will be. What tips mages far over the top are the access to spirit powers and astral projection/ritual magic. The tradition plays a role as well, so Voodoo practitioners are vastly more powerful than any of the other traditions for excemple, but any mage tradition is horrifying in their own right. So, he trips alarms? How? Ever heard of the concealment power? Ever heard of ruthenium polymer suits? ever heard of silence spells? Let's take a rather harmless Force 6 Spirit of Air. That alone is a -6 on perception tests for the entire team, ALSO against astral perception tests. Add to that -4 from the Chameleon Suit for a total of -10 against visual perception. Now add thermo smoke grenades, a silence spell and TacNet and you can brute force yourself through pretty much any security setup.

How your mage manages to trigger alarms, is beyond me.


Pain editor + Magic 6 and even with your added house rule, Force 6 Spirits are a joke to summon.

Excemple - Voddoo Houngan:

Need a combat skill? -> Summon Guardian Spirit.
Need a technical Skill? -> Summon Task Spirit.
Need a physical skill? -> Summon Task Spirit.
Need to find something or someone? -> Search Critter Power.
Need extra defenses against magical threats? -> Magical Guard critter Power.
Need more Body and armor? -> Summon a spirit.
Need more strength? -> Summon a spirit.
Need better initiative? -> Summon a spirit.
Need to get in or out quickly? -> Movement Critter Power.
...

The list goes on. Now, what skills does he actually need? Summoning, Infiltration, Dodge. What attributes does he need? Cha, Willpower, Reaction.
What gear can he use to further go nuts? Pain Editor + Pain Compensator 7.

That excemple is aims to illustrate the underlying problem with an extreme case. While other traditions are less of a problem, the underlying problem stays the same.

All of your examples are predicated upon an Edge Case, though.

Take Voodoo. Yes, it can be very powerful. DO you Actually know anything about Voodoo though? Do you know how the relationship between the Loa and the Houngon functions? Tradition plays a HUGE role in controlling the Character. You can argue that it is all fluff and irrelevant, but I would heavily disagree with you. The tradition shapes the magician.

He trips alarms because concealment does not work on a pressure sensors. Oops, just stepped on one. Damn, how inconvenient. It is not so useful to the Observer who is rocking Radar and has a a decent Perception Pool. Ooops, Damn, how inconvenient. Does not work against the Watcher spirit told to watch the door and if it opens, tell someone. Ooops, Damn, how inconvenient. Does not work against Glowmoss that detects that heavy magic use and illuminates, thus alerting the sensor watching to notify someone. Ooops, Damn, how inconvenient. The point is obviously that there are no guaranteed magical solutions out there. They can all fail. And the Corps KNOW ALL THE TRICKS. Shadowrunners are not some special, unique snowflake.

Yes, the Other Characters have some of the same issues. Most wear Ruthenium. Even so, you still need a decent Stealth ability for it to work well. Threshold 1 is laughably easy to penetrate.

And even with the Pain Editor/DC 7 "Fix" (Which he must give up a Point of Magic/Essence to Acquire), he is STILL TAKING DAMAGE. and thus, he will eventually go down. The mage wants to take as little damage AS POSSIBLE. Just taking a piece of ware to negate that does not fix the issue. In a protracted encounter, the mage WILL go down if he is continually accumulating damage that the others do not worry about, because he has to contend not only with the damage of the encounter (Gunfire, toxins, etc) he must also contend with the results of Drain, which will be an issue over time.

As for your Voodoo Example. What happens if your Guy needs multiple skills from your list, or multiple effects simultaneously, and they are from different spirits? He has to summon them at some point. Again, potential Drain right there. You are predicating the existence of perfect circumstance for the magician, and that does not, nor will it ever, exist in game.

If your games are so lax on the Mage Player, well, damn, I want to play in one of those games. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Hopefully I did not ramble too much. It has been a Hell of a Day here...

[rlor]

Your GM sounds like a dick.

We were not exactly thrilled at what we had to oppose; over time an understanding was reached and the game is more in the mundane with a little bit of magic thrown in category.

On the plus side it helped show me how to deal with certain elements of magic without having to resort to magic. Would they all work against a really saavy player, no. Would they work against a mage player/character who relies on a limited number of tricks over and over again, I believe so.

[Eratosthenes]

Well, how hard would it be for a Corp to say "you all have to carry your badge on you at all times" (yes, i have to deal with this all the time at work).

Then all they have to do is spend a lil time and (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) on making the badges give off a faint signature in astral. Cant be that much more expensive then making a keycard.

The spirit could be told to look for those lacking that signature.

Granted, there is a way around it, but then, there should always be a way around the security measures, otherwise whats the point of playing? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yes, of course they can. But now we're moving away from the argument of how to make life tougher for mages, and specific magical-aligned security measures. The idea of spirits/watchers on the astral would be to identify anyone using magic in the facility, and reporting it. Therefore a mage would have to think about the consequences of magic use.

The idea of astrally active corporate badges is an excellent idea. And one that would make a team forge or steal said badges (or somehow co-opt, sneak past, or blind the spirits?). Much like they'd like have to do with regular badges that are used in non-matrix connected locks, sealed behind blast-proof covers (i.e. can't be re-wired).

--

Regarding mages and pain editors...seriously? At 18F, they aren't available readily available at char gen. With Restricted Gear, sure. But between that, the essence loss (necessitating more BP spent on the magic attrib) and the 40,000 cost, you're going to be lacking in many other areas. From my experience, creating mage characters is a difficult balancing act without such munchkinistic tricks.

Many of the arguments against mages seem to pre-suppose an advanced power level (summoning Force 8 spirits? Seriously?) against fresh out of char gen characters.

[Yerameyahu]

… Because they do that. It's very common to get those Force-8-summoning mages straight out of chargen. That's the issue.

[Halinn]

Basically, if you're not afraid of binding a force 4 spirit, you shouldn't be afraid of summoning a force 8 one.
It gets especially easy if you decide to spend a point of essence on platelet factories and a trauma dampener. Cybereyes are quite nice for mages to have anyhow, since the added modes of vision aids in targeting (especially magnification).

[D2F]

Your GM sounds like a dick.

Agreed.

[Irion]

The angel summoner needs:
Powerfocus 4 (restricted gear), Summoning 6 and magic 5.
(in game get an spec. for your favorite kind of spirit. Do it ingame so you have some testing time)
Thats 15 dice to start with and will go up to 17 dice soon.
Thats more than enough to summon force 8 spirits. Hell even a force 10 spirit is possible.

For the drain issue ist would be best to take an elf and get charisma 7 willpower 5. Resulting in 13 dice to resist drain. (Or 4 points of damage on avarage)
A force 9 spirit costs 6 points of drain on avarage...

[D2F]

Which is irrelevant for the discussion. He does have Astral Sight, so he can perceive when needed. And While Projection is nice, it is far from the "I Win" button that some presuppose. Just because he is not OPTIMAL to YOU does not mean that he is not OPTIMAL to ME. That character has FAR more utility than any other mage I have ever seen (though he does lack combat spells, currently... But that is what Firearms and other, heavier weapons/options are for anyways), and when he gets more karma, it will go up drastically (50 More spells, after all, provides a HUGE amount of Versatiliy). But I have a simple Question for you. Currently, the Mage I play is a Black Magician, following Adversary. Whould he have more utility (and thus more power... or better optimization...), in your eyes, if he were a Voodoo Houngon?

Astral Projection is the single best recon ability in the game. Saying that Astral Perception is somewhat comparable is ludicrous.
You are using the word "optimal". I am using the words "efficienttly built". Big difference. There is no "optimal build". Yours, however, while suiting your tastes and working for you, is not a full mage build and not even comparable in its abilities. You claim it is the most versatile "mage" you have ever seen, yet I dump you into the Ajengule Slums in Lagos and he is a mundane freak with no abilities in a war zone. Hell, I dump him in hells kitchen or Glow City in Seattle and he's about as helpful as a stage magician, in combat or infiltration. BGC kills your character faster than you can blink. And BGC isn't all that rare.
Not being able to summon spirits is yet another huge factor. I get it, your group doesn't use spirits a lot. That's fine. That's also missing out on a major power source for mages.
And not being able to utilize ritual Magic is yet another major drawback of your character. You need a spotter for ritual magic and while the caster itself can be the spotter, she'd need to astrally project, to do so. Or use a spirit. You lack both options.

So, let's sum this up:

• You cannot summon spirits
• You cannot astrally project
• You cannot use ritual magic on your own
• BCG flat out kills you, even while it's still a minor annoyance to other magic users.

And yet, you believe your character to be the most versatile "mage" you have ever seen. I am under the impression that mages at your table have been vastly underutilizing their potential, so far.
Again, don't get me wrong. If it works for you and your group, it's great and I don't want you to change anything. Hell, I don't want you to change anything, period. My point is that just because the mages at your table have been putting on the kiddy gloves out of a respect for fairness and balance, doesn't mean you can use your table as an adequate excemple to illustrate the problem.

And no, your character wouldn't be better off as a houngan, since you can't summon spirits, making the point of a houngan moot (other than for flavor)

The difference is when you need the security. If you need Matrix Security, it is often much more expensivce, infrastructure wise, than magical Security is. Some things may not actually need Magical Security, and then the mage can show how tough he is. So what. If it did not need magical security, why was a mage hired to breach it? Same for the Matrix Security. If there is none, you would never hire a Hacker to penetrate it, now would you?

The difference you keep overlooking:
I don't always need matrix security <-> I always need magical security

Why is his potential vastly underused?

Because combat spells aren't all that great. A simple heavy automatic, peppershot grenade or flashbang serves the same purpose without the need for a mage. What males mages powerfull is not their combat ability, but their resources, namely spirits, astral projection and ritual magic. Those three are MAJOR power aspects. Critter powers in general tend to be vasty more powerful than spells. And the recon value of astral projection and ritual magic, especially when paired with the search critter power, are ridiculous.

Because it IS a measure of Power. And usually one that Mage has a very hard time competing in due to his magical focus.

Being a mage prevents you in no way, shape or from from keeping your social contacs. Just because your mage chose to willfully ignore them doesn't constitute an argument for your case.

Ally spirits are a way to gain power without the crutch of a Focus. Yes, they are their own crutch, of a sort, but they can be extremely versatile and useful to the mage. Far more so than any Focus (or even a combination of Foci) could ever be.

Their cost to benefit ratio is horrible.

Take Voodoo. Yes, it can be very powerful. DO you Actually know anything about Voodoo though? Do you know how the relationship between the Loa and the Houngon functions? Tradition plays a HUGE role in controlling the Character. You can argue that it is all fluff and irrelevant, but I would heavily disagree with you. The tradition shapes the magician.

Yes, I know how voodoo works. Yes, I also know how Vodun works. I know the difference between a Loa, a Lwa and an Orisha. I know the difference between rada rites, petro rites and the nonexistence of both in Vodun and Santeria.
That all doesn't matter though, for a player can play a Voodoo houngan, without knowing alls these things and having a GM that also doesn't know all these things and still have the same Voodoo mechanis everyone else has in SR.
Try not to argue game balance on the basis of fluff.

He trips alarms because concealment does not work on a pressure sensors.

And he doesn't have an Infiltration skill? As a runner? What runner in their right mind would NOT have an Inflitration skill?

As for your Voodoo Example. What happens if your Guy needs multiple skills from your list, or multiple effects simultaneously, and they are from different spirits? He has to summon them at some point. Again, potential Drain right there. You are predicating the existence of perfect circumstance for the magician, and that does not, nor will it ever, exist in game.

As I pointed our earlier: sumoning spirits is easy. Binding them is the tough one.

If your games are so lax on the Mage Player, well, damn, I want to play in one of those games. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Hopefully I did not ramble too much. It has been a Hell of a Day here...

Wouldn't make much of a difference for you, since you couldn't do any of the fun stuff. Besides, I already said that I banned PC mages from my group. Solves the mage problem right then, right there.

[Elfenlied]

Besides, I already said that I banned PC mages from my group. Solves the mage problem right then, right there.

That's like saying avoiding contact with attractive members of the opposite (or same if you swing that way) sex is the solution to rejection. You're not even trying, it's taking the easy way out. You lose out on so much that it hardly seems worth the effort.

[Warlordtheft]

How do you do that?

Each badge has a little tube of glow moss that spells out this persons name. When the spirit is present it glows.

[D2F]

That's like saying avoiding contact with attractive members of the opposite (or same if you swing that way) sex is the solution to rejection. You're not even trying, it's taking the easy way out. You lose out on so much that it hardly seems worth the effort.

While the analogy holds true, the outcome does not. I didn't ban mages because I couldn't compensate for them. I banned them because they made stories boring, they cut down tremendously on the need for social negineering and legwork and they make anything but high security environments trivial.
I love the fluff about mages, but they make the game less interesting. Not just in SR, but in most other systems as well.
Can I design a completely mage-proof security system? Yes, I can. Is it fun to run against that every single time? Hell no!.
So many stories can not be told with mages on board.

Detective stories -> solved in a second
Missing Child? -> solved in a second
Undercover infiltrator -> solved in a second
Attacked by a street gang -> solved in a second
Viral spread in an urban area -> solved in a second

Magic is the ultimate answer to everything you're to lazy to find a creative way to solve. It's nice to have as the occasional GM tool, but it's silly to have around constantly.
Plus: the number of magically active people in the world is around 1%. That includes adepts. Yet, nearly every runner team seems to have a 20-50% quota in them. It's just not good enough.

I understand why you see it differently and I am not trying to change the way you play or think about magic in SR, but trust me, I am not missing out on anything. Triesd SR with magic for 23 years now. It's better without. And yes, I still allow adepts. Even cannibalistic, Vodun practicing ones.

[Neraph]

While the analogy holds true, the outcome does not. I didn't ban mages because I couldn't compensate for them. I banned them because they made stories boring, they cut down tremendously on the need for social negineering and legwork and they make anything but high security environments trivial.
I love the fluff about mages, but they make the game less interesting. Not just in SR, but in most other systems as well.
Can I design a completely mage-proof security system? Yes, I can. Is it fun to run against that every single time? Hell no!.
So many stories can not be told with mages on board.

Detective stories -> solved in a second
Missing Child? -> solved in a second
Undercover infiltrator -> solved in a second
Attacked by a street gang -> solved in a second
Viral spread in an urban area -> solved in a second

Magic is the ultimate answer to everything you're to lazy to find a creative way to solve. It's nice to have as the occasional GM tool, but it's silly to have around constantly.
Plus: the number of magically active people in the world is around 1%. That includes adepts. Yet, nearly every runner team seems to have a 20-50% quota in them. It's just not good enough.

I understand why you see it differently and I am not trying to change the way you play or think about magic in SR, but trust me, I am not missing out on anything. Triesd SR with magic for 23 years now. It's better without. And yes, I still allow adepts. Even cannibalistic, Vodun practicing ones.

I disagree with your position. 1% of the SINner population is Awakened - there is no guarantee that that same percentage works for the SINless also. Another issue is that the mage in question would only solve those problems "in a second" (1 IP, really?[I know what you meant]) if they had the proper spell. There have been times my group has looked to me for Levitate or Improved Invisibility and got nothing because I did not have those spells. And lastly, just because the mage can do it doesn't mean the mundane can't do it better.

[binarywraith]

I disagree with your position. 1% of the SINner population is Awakened - there is no guarantee that that same percentage works for the SINless also. Another issue is that the mage in question would only solve those problems "in a second" (1 IP, really?[I know what you meant]) if they had the proper spell. There have been times my group has looked to me for Levitate or Improved Invisibility and got nothing because I did not have those spells. And lastly, just because the mage can do it doesn't mean the mundane can't do it better.

If you did not have those spells, then it is because you made a conscious decision to make your character less powerful and versatile than it could have been.

[Draco18s]

And lastly, just because the mage can do it doesn't mean the mundane can't do it better.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/proof.gif)

[Garou]

Well, as i see it, the problem is payment. I don't think mages walking over obstacles is doing something wrong. Maybe it's doing something right. That's what they are paid for, after all. And if that makes the runs too easy, then perhaps some karma awards are no longer necessary.

The solution as i see it, is not to cap mages, but pay your PCs more so the missions get more difficult to everyone. In those cases, Mages aren't a plus, they are a given. They are a group on a whole different operating level with a mage.

I will quote D2F's examples with more money in.

Detective stories -> solved in a second
Missing Child? -> solved in a second
Undercover infiltrator -> solved in a second
Attacked by a street gang -> solved in a second
Viral spread in an urban area -> solved in a second

Detective Stories solved in a second? Perhaps not. With more money involved, the challenges skyrocket. What if an A.I is your killer, and the murder was an empty car, remotely controled, that accidentaly haywired and killed a victim?
Missing Child solved in a second? Not if the mission child is taken into a home that has mana barriers. Or if the child is taken into a location with a HUGE bc count. Like, i don't know, the ritualistic cell where a dexter-like serial killer has been killing his victims for the last 20 years? That would probably send BC spiralling down the whole block. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Even if the killer was mundane (doesn't have to be, he can be just a nice, rich, serial killer with a kill room in a very secure area).
Undercover infiltration -> That was kinda ambiguous as a situation, because i couldn't know if the mage was undercover or if there was an undercover guy on the group/mission. And if you mean infiltration in physical sense, Even a mage would still need tech skills and hacking skills that most mage characters that i've seen on tables rarely have on runs that pay a lot of money. Life gets tougher when you don't have a specialist and your spirits can't just blow up a door on their hinges.
Attacked by a street gang -> You expect your PC to be well paid for THAT? Unless the gang is a powerhouse like the Ancients, in such a case they totally have mages on their own.
Viral Spread in an urban area -> Not in a second, unless the mage can be in 7 or 8 places at once. And that's easier if you have full group with many resources that are not magical. You will need everyone to stop those cannisters, as some are in areas were mages do not shine, but other characters do. And that is why THEY are well payed as well.

No need to beef up mage specific security in most examples. The mage have their places, and they are great on that. But high paying missions are hard without any specialists, and i think that's the way it should be. To answer the OP, just tweak your missions to be proposed by Wealthier Johnsons. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) This way, any magic security you use may be justified if you have to. That's why you are paying 50k for the mage, after all!

[Elfenlied]

Use the Deep Cover quality for Undercover Infiltrators. It's specifically immune to magical probing.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Astral Projection is the single best recon ability in the game. Saying that Astral Perception is somewhat comparable is ludicrous.
You are using the word "optimal". I am using the words "efficienttly built". Big difference. There is no "optimal build". Yours, however, while suiting your tastes and working for you, is not a full mage build and not even comparable in its abilities. You claim it is the most versatile "mage" you have ever seen, yet I dump you into the Ajengule Slums in Lagos and he is a mundane freak with no abilities in a war zone. Hell, I dump him in hells kitchen or Glow City in Seattle and he's about as helpful as a stage magician, in combat or infiltration. BGC kills your character faster than you can blink. And BGC isn't all that rare.
Not being able to summon spirits is yet another huge factor. I get it, your group doesn't use spirits a lot. That's fine. That's also missing out on a major power source for mages.
And not being able to utilize ritual Magic is yet another major drawback of your character. You need a spotter for ritual magic and while the caster itself can be the spotter, she'd need to astrally project, to do so. Or use a spirit. You lack both options.

So, let's sum this up:

• You cannot summon spirits
• You cannot astrally project
• You cannot use ritual magic on your own
• BCG flat out kills you, even while it's still a minor annoyance to other magic users.

And yet, you believe your character to be the most versatile "mage" you have ever seen. I am under the impression that mages at your table have been vastly underutilizing their potential, so far.
Again, don't get me wrong. If it works for you and your group, it's great and I don't want you to change anything. Hell, I don't want you to change anything, period. My point is that just because the mages at your table have been putting on the kiddy gloves out of a respect for fairness and balance, doesn't mean you can use your table as an adequate excemple to illustrate the problem.

And no, your character wouldn't be better off as a houngan, since you can't summon spirits, making the point of a houngan moot (other than for flavor)

Since when does an Effective Build have a Single Definition? You are saying that there is only one way to build a mage, and i am saying that you are wrong. Effective is in the eye of the beholder.

So the Ajengule Slums of Lagos have a BGC of 5 (I highly Doubt it)? And your Magician Character with the Magic Rating of 5 does any better? How? Yes, Background Count Sucks, which is WHY I built the character to be effective WITHOUT his magic, if need be. He is competant as a runner without the Mojo. Aren't your mages?

* Where do you get that the character cannot summon Spirits? You are so wildly wrong here that it is again laughable. Not once did I say that. What I said was that the GM enforces an Edge Expenditure for Spirits above Force 3 (so 4+).
* Projection is not all that and a bag of chips.
* I CAN use ritual Magic on my own, why couldn't I? If you have a material Component, or have Sympathetic Linking Metamagic, you do not need a SPotter. And, If I need a SPotter, I can use a Spirit. Case Closed.
* Character has a Magic of 5 (it is just split among Adept/Sorcery). Unless the BGC is 5, it does not KILL me. It removes some capabilities, that is all (Just like any other mage). And with proper Metamagics, not even that stops the character.

You really should read up on your Magic Rules there D2F. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

With 37 Spells, the mage is MUCH MORE VERSATILE than your typical mage. Why, because he has 37 spells to fall back on. Your typical mage has what, 10-12 spells? Max of 18 or so? So, MORE VERSATILE. You cannot argue that.

The mages at our table are not underutilized, they just have adequate controls (most of which would likely qualify as Fluff) upon them so that they do not dominate the encounters all the time. You know, that thing you keep complaining about!!!

No Kiddy Gloves are used. We just understand the LIMITATIONS of the world and magic in general.

As Draco18s said earlier (even if tongue in cheek). Overpowered Mages are Edge Cases.

As for Spirits. A Mystic Adept CAN SUMMON SPIRITS if he has the Skill. WHICH HE DOES...

The difference you keep overlooking:
I don't always need matrix security <-> I always need magical security

You are right, you may not need matrix Security ALL the time. By the same token, You do not always need magical Security either. And, When you don't, expect your mage to dominate unless you use adequate mundane security procedures. Magical Security is not always available for hte low end stuff. My question is this... If you have a group with a powerful magician, why is he beiung hired to take on low end targets?

Because combat spells aren't all that great. A simple heavy automatic, peppershot grenade or flashbang serves the same purpose without the need for a mage. What males mages powerfull is not their combat ability, but their resources, namely spirits, astral projection and ritual magic. Those three are MAJOR power aspects. Critter powers in general tend to be vasty more powerful than spells. And the recon value of astral projection and ritual magic, especially when paired with the search critter power, are ridiculous.

You are right about strictly combat spells. You only need one or two. However there are combat SPELLS tha are not COMBAT Spells.
What makes MAges powerful is HOW they use their resources, not the fact that they have those resources. The only resource you do not have as a Mystic Adept is Projection (and perception if you do not have the Adept ability). Everything else they can do too. So, I am not sure where you are getting your information from.

Yes. Critter powers are nice too. Recon Value of Astral projection is still, in my opinion, highly overrated. Yes, it is useful. But you can accomplish many, if not all, of the things you can do with Astral Recon, physically. And often better since Mundane methods can actually get past those wards, while a Mage will either have to track down the maker of that ward to find a signature so that he can ATTEMPT to fool the ward (Assuming he has proper metamagic to do so), or he can bring it down, which kind of ruins the recon.

Being a mage prevents you in no way, shape or from from keeping your social contacs. Just because your mage chose to willfully ignore them doesn't constitute an argument for your case.

Perhaps, but it was another indicator of where he placed his focus (And it is not MY Mage that we were talking about, but the fairly powerful Combat Mage we were discussing here), which was in increasing his power level, so that he could, you know, fulfill his niche in the team.

Their cost to benefit ratio is horrible.

Not really... This particular Ally Spirit cost a bit more than the Power Focus he could have gotten, but he also gained a few other abilities along with it. Like Unlimited Spirit Services, access to unlimited Critter Powers that the Ally Has access to. Invoked abilities oif the spirit. Etc.

Yes, I know how voodoo works. Yes, I also know how Vodun works. I know the difference between a Loa, a Lwa and an Orisha. I know the difference between rada rites, petro rites and the nonexistence of both in Vodun and Santeria.
That all doesn't matter though, for a player can play a Voodoo houngan, without knowing alls these things and having a GM that also doesn't know all these things and still have the same Voodoo mechanis everyone else has in SR.
Try not to argue game balance on the basis of fluff.

But FLUFF is PART of the Game Balance. if you do not actively use the fluff of the world, no wonder your games have overpowered magicians. Not all of the world is mechanically relevant, but it IS all FLUFF relevant.

And he doesn't have an Infiltration skill? As a runner? What runner in their right mind would NOT have an Inflitration skill?

He does, it is just prettty pathetic in comparison to everyone else. Why? Because he relies upon his magic to carry him through. As a result, his thresholds for detection are often much lower than the rest of us. If his magic fails him, he sets the alarms off. Part of the problem of being a Mage. If you want to increase your potential as a mage, everything else tends to suffer.

As I pointed our earlier: sumoning spirits is easy. Binding them is the tough one.

And as I pointed out, if your spirits spend Edge to resist Summoning/Binding, then it creates an environment where the mage is VERY reluctant to try for those game breaking spirits that everyone complains about. If that Force 8 (Out of Chargen, remember) spirit is initially spending 16 Dice and re-rolling 6's for Summoning, and 24 Dice for Binding, well, not many are going to try and summon/bind them. Even Force 5's and 6's are not something you casually summon at that point. 13 Dice for Drain Resistance (From someone's post above, don't remember whose) is not enough to matter at that point if the Force 8 Spirit managed to net him a conservative 5-7 Hits for 10-14 points of Physical Damage. You may not think it has an impact, but it really does.

Wouldn't make much of a difference for you, since you couldn't do any of the fun stuff. Besides, I already said that I banned PC mages from my group. Solves the mage problem right then, right there.

My Character can do ALL of the fun stuff. You really should read up on the Magical Rules a bit more. I think that you have missed some very important aspects... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Banning is a bit heavy handed, I think, since the game world is all about the interaction between Man, Magic and Machine. If all you want is Man vs. machine, then you should probably look at playing Cyberpunk 2020 instead. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

QUOTE (Neraph @ Apr 12 2012, 08:49 AM)
And lastly, just because the mage can do it doesn't mean the mundane can't do it better.[/quote]

I wish I had thought to say that... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Use the Deep Cover quality for Undercover Infiltrators. It's specifically immune to magical probing.

Indeed... It is an Awesome Quality... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tias]

Lot of good info here, I have a great deal of the same problems with my own groups mage. Keep it coming!

Exactly. The fluff has it that corporations are quite active in 'hiring' mages, which seems to imply that they aren't extremely picky about what their traditions are. They might favor one tradition, but they sure won't say no to a mage of another tradition.

I know it's a while back, but I'm almost sure the core rules or street magic states that corporations prefer hiring Hermetics to other traditions, citing other traditions problems with fitting into a corporate milieu. I believe the quote is "you try telling a coyote shaman he only has an hour for lunch break".

@Chainsaw Samurai...

I would be willing to bet that MIT&T does not teach just Hermeticism. I would be willing to bet you can earn degrees in several Traditions there. Hermeticism, Chaos Magic, and Black Magic are probably chief among their curriculum. They probably also have Curriculum in Voodoo, Zoroastrianism and even Wicca as well.

That is indeed the case, Wicca and Shamanism is taught alongside Hermetic studies in most larger universities. Black and Chaotic courses are probably a good deal harder to find due to rarity and stigma against the traditions, and Hoodoo should probably be learned in the caribbeans, africa or the CAS to be worthwhile. Shadows of X offer a good range of known universities and their magic studies. For instance, some of the best classes in pagan magical traditions can be found at the University of Prague!