Naturally limiting magician characters, without it seeming like your picking on them Options

[Cheops]

1:Mages can never rival the aeo damage potential of a full auto grenade launcher or heck even just someone with a couple f grenades to throw

My group must be playing SR wrong then because our mages are more likely to use such weaponry than just about anyone else. Anything a mundane can do a mage can do.

Chainsaw Samurai got it right that the problem with mages has never been their combat potential -- it is their versatility.

[Yerameyahu]

Also… why would you be carting around a FA GL in all the same places and situations you'd have 'a mage'? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Chainsaw Samurai]

Also… why would you be carting around a FA GL in all the same places and situations you'd have 'a mage'? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

What? You're just going to sit back and let the Mage have all the fun?

[almost normal]

Why would anyone go FA with a grenade launcher anyway? You don't get an extra grenade roll per `nade launched, it's just the added bonus damage.

Twin MGL-6's are the way to go. 4 full nade rolls > 1 nade roll with a +9

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Why would anyone go FA with a grenade launcher anyway? You don't get an extra grenade roll per `nade launched, it's just the added bonus damage.

Twin MGL-6's are the way to go. 4 full nade rolls > 1 nade roll with a +9

Not quite how it works, Almost Normal. Take a look at WAR!

[almost normal]

Not quite how it works, Almost Normal. Take a look at WAR!

I thought the common consensus was to ignore everything in War!? (!? seems odd, but... it's correct I suppose.)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I thought the common consensus was to ignore everything in War!? (!? seems odd, but... it's correct I suppose.)

Not from me. Though there are a few things that are odd in WAR!, not all of it is problematic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
For FA Grenades, i would just plot the 10 Drifts, and then compare zones/overlapping zones of effect. Lot of rolls, to be sure, but it gets rid of the craziness of just amping up the DV to crazy levels.

[Mäx]

I thought the common consensus was to ignore everything in War!? (!? seems odd, but... it's correct I suppose.)

Well then you dont really have have full auto grenade launchers either.

But really mostly it's just people who love to hate it that are preaching about ignoring it.
Most of the silly think in it are damm easy to fix as a gm and it has some damm good additions to the game, like Battle Rifles,mines and the indirect combat spells smartlink.

[Draco18s]

Most of the silly think in it are damm easy to fix

Shame it requires more fixes than the entire rest of SR4(A) combined. >..>

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Shame it requires more fixes than the entire rest of SR4(A) combined. >..>

Not really... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Irion]

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Well, depends on what you draw the line...
The stuff in WAR! seems to jump very high, I have to admit.

But yes, if you stay reasonable and not try to balance rules by GM-fiat, you will have a lot fixes in place after core, augmentation, streetmagic, arsenal and runners companion alone.
(If you are thorough probably even more than there is stuff added in WAR!)

[Mäx]

Shame it requires more fixes than the entire rest of SR4(A) combined. >..>

Not really and the silliest thinks are pretty irrelevant to 99% of games anyway(ie. the submersible warship)

[almost normal]

Not really and the silliest thinks are pretty irrelevant to 99% of games anyway(ie. the submersible warship)

Yeah. Cause no player would ever want a firewall/ECCM/Whatever of 10

[rlor]

So, out of curiousity, why not just GM a session of Cyberpunk 2020 then?

Pretty much what Chainsaw Samurai said. When I played in a few SR2 campaigns magic was really underplayed in those campaigns and I enjoyed it greatly. I have not enjoyed SRun as much in any edition when magic takes on more prominence because countering or using magic seems to trump most other concerns at the tables where I have played. Just like I wouldn't enjoy the game if it became "heavy weapons solve all problems". I can't say a magic heavy game or a game about heavy weapons is wrong, but I wouldn't want to GM one of those. I don't think I have to stop playing ShadowRun to accomplish that though.

[UmaroVI]

Not from me. Though there are a few things that are odd in WAR!, not all of it is problematic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
For FA Grenades, i would just plot the 10 Drifts, and then compare zones/overlapping zones of effect. Lot of rolls, to be sure, but it gets rid of the craziness of just amping up the DV to crazy levels.

That probably would be more realistic, but it really would take a long time to roll out. I'd rather they just followed the normal rules except they always count as a narrow burst, and grenades with a fixed area add +25/50/100% for short/long/full. So FA smoke grenades cover a 20m radius, FA flashbangs are 15S/-3/20m radius, and FA frag grenades are 21p(f)/+5 (and thus 21m radius). The larger radius represents scattering a bunch of grenades around the area, and the increased damage, where applicable, is overlapping blasts. Simple, reasonably well balanced, and consistent with other rules.

That said, the "roll each grenade separetely" method is still better than the "taping 20 frag grenades together will destroy a main battle tank" method WAR! uses.

EDIT: FA!=HV.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That probably would be more realistic, but it really would take a long time to roll out. I'd rather they just followed the normal rules except they always count as a narrow burst, and grenades with a fixed area add +25/50/100% for short/long/full. So FA smoke grenades cover a 20m radius, HV flashbangs are 15S/-3/20m radius, and HV frag grenades are 21p(f)/+5 (and thus 21m radius). The larger radius represents scattering a bunch of grenades around the area, and the increased damage, where applicable, is overlapping blasts. Simple, reasonably well balanced, and consistent with other rules.

That said, the "roll each grenade separetely" method is still better than the "taping 20 frag grenades together will destroy a main battle tank" method WAR! uses.

Indeed... Too many rolls. However, I do like your incrementingly larger AOE, though. Good Idea. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mäx]

Yeah. Cause no player would ever want a firewall/ECCM/Whatever of 10

Ofcource they do, so it's good their in the book (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[_Pax._]

Honestly: The main issue is that magic go more power with every new sourcebook...

And other archetypes haven't?

Please, invite me to tell you how one WIP character I've got, will have over forty dice to soak non-mental damage with.

...

As for the mage described by the OP? Invis, combat, AND levitate? Just how diverse IS his spell repertoire, anyway? Because it sounds like he was actively TRYING to be the center of attention. IOw, he tried to build a JOAT mage, who could solve almost anything he came up against. And that is a very un-kosher approach to take, on the player's behalf. Niche protection, IMO, is important for group harmony, and collective enjoyment.

Corporate Wage Slave daddy has a magically aware daughter? The Corp knows, she's already enrolled in their elementary school. They already have a plan for the rest of her life. This plan includes teaching her magic according to the Corps paradigm tradition. That is how communities and their respective traditions work, you'd find a simplified version of the same process among the Native American communities (albeit likely a bit less sinister and coercive, Aztechnology aside).

Yep. And, as has been pointed out a few times now, they've had SIXTY YEARS to do this in. That's two entir egenerations. It's entirely possible that you could have Grandma, Dad, and Daughter all owrking for the same Mega, all Mages, and of course all of the same Tradition.

Then you're one strange person. Being bored is in no way implied in any of the examples, and to insert it where it isn't found means your making stuff up, calling it the rules, and backing it up with 'because I said so'.

Shenanigans.

Soul-crushing boredom would eventually evoke a sense of DESPAIR.

And that most certainly sounds like the kind of thing that can create a background count, to me.

...

HOWEVER ... given that, as observed, Corps probably have more than 2-3 mages around any major facility .... mages who would not function as well in said background count? I'm pretty sure the corp stages Morale-boosting events now and then, and maybe has some initiated mages (Geomancers maybe?) come through to "smooth over" various job-sites. So probably, most places that aren't specifically magic-oriented, have a BGC of 0. Not all, but most.

Well, how hard would it be for a Corp to say "you all have to carry your badge on you at all times" (yes, i have to deal with this all the time at work).

Then all they have to do is spend a lil time and (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) on making the badges give off a faint signature in astral. Cant be that much more expensive then making a keycard.

Maybe slap a Rating 1 Ward on them? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[almost normal]

Maybe slap a Rating 1 Ward on them? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Wards can't be moved.

[_Pax._]

Wards can't be moved.

Hmm. So much for that idea. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Ears]

Also, they have to extend at least one metre from their anchor in every direction.
Consultant: "What about that huge warehouse near the docks? You're not using it for anything."
CEO: "Oh, that's where we store our badges. HR hasn't figured out how hand them to new employees, though. Last I heard they were investigating something called ten foot poles..."

[_Pax._]

Actually, I just realised how to do it. Well, maybe.

Custom-designed spells, that cause the badge to project/display a specific pattern of color and shape on the astral when touched by a spirit, or by another custom-designed spell. Spells that become "permanent" a la Healing, and last for .... oh, call it [Force] months.

Sure, mass-production would be .... impractical. Even if you use Magic 1 and 2 mages (highschool kids just learnign spellcasting, perhaps?) to churn out F1 castings.

But, if you only use that kind of badge for off-hours - meaning, security personnel, night janitors, etc - then you don't NEED a lot.

So, now you direct yoru spirits, watchers included, to "touch" the badge's astral shadow whenever they first see a particular sentient being ... and if the color or shape doesn't match, or if they don't HAVE one of those special badges ... off they go to raise the alarm.

...

I can see security companies offering exactly that sort of scheme as an add-on to their usual Site and Magical security services.

And what's better is? It offers new possibilities for Legwork and/or on-site ops for the players: "get the spell formula" or "get some of those badges". I can also see groups being sent on a run, where said formula is the specific target. Especially, along with the schedule of "what shape(s) and color(s) are the A-OK sign for THIS month, at X location?"

It'd be like stealing the keys to that location's main security nexus. Very valuable, very well protected, definitely shadowrun-worthy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[almost normal]

At that point, its a self sealing stem bolt. A thought out one, perhaps, but a stem bolt nonetheless.

[Ears]

Not that I'd want to fuck up anybody's DS9 reference, but what's the difference between Runners getting assigned to cleaning duty, getting issued normal badges and Runners getting assigned to cleaning duty, getting issued super-magical badges?
After all the cleaning service will be provided by the lowest bidder, so even billions spent on astral security will mean diddly squat...
No self sealing stem bolt is worth more than the guy selling them, usually Quark, maybe Morn himself.

[pbangarth]

Wards can't be moved.

According to the errata for Street Magic, it is the movement of the anchor in relation to the ward it supports that is not allowed. Hence, the inside of a vehicle can be warded, and the vehicle can move around with it inside.

However, the size of a ward is limited to greater than a cubic meter in volume.