Bioscultping Infected, What a beautiful Ghoul she is... Options

[Makki]

RC p. 78 states "Biosculpting to appear as normal specimen of their metatype is popular among the Infected and treated as a Severe Modification" (0.3-0.5 essence, 10k+ Y).
I imagine for Ghouls this includes a teeth operation and a very large manicure and of course skin care.

What would be an appropriate Perception Threshold to identify him as a Ghoul?
Would a successful Disguise test by said Ghoul be additionally helpful? Ruleswise, would it add to or replace said Perception Threshold?

[Chainsaw Samurai]

I just reskimmed the rules to be sure, but I don't think there is a test to identify. It mentions gender reassignment and metatype reassignment, both things that you'd figure relevant parties would be interested in a test for, and absolutely no mention of a roll.

So I'd assume that biosculpting technology is advanced enough to make identifications like that more or less impossible visually.

Technologically their blood would still show infection. Magically they are still dual natured and there is all sorts of tricks to identify them that way. There might be some things I'm forgetting, but from the way things are written you would be unable to tell the difference visually.

Hell, making yourself look like anyone else is also a severe modification. Why settle for just looking like preinfection you when you could look like Magnum PI era Tom Selleck?

[Makki]

Magically they are still dual natured

Actually it says, when an Infected looses all his Magic (essence loss due to ware e.g.), the only powers remaining are Natural Weapon and Enhanced Smell. So byebye dual nature, which is listed as a power.

[mmmkay]

Wouldn't they lose Natural Weapon, because of biosculpting? As in a ghoul gets a permanent manicure so they don't have claws anymore.

[Chainsaw Samurai]

Wouldn't they lose Natural Weapon, because of biosculpting? As in a ghoul gets a permanent manicure so they don't have claws anymore.

Now that is a good question. I don't know. Probably? The closest I could figure is what is written for Metatype Reassignment and it mentions that the changes are cosmetic and no metatype bonuses or penalities are obtained with this treatment.

Doesn't say anything at all about the potential of losing bonuses or penalties. For that matter if a Troll were to undergo a metatype reassignment to Dwarf, does he keep his armor and reach?

For the sake of the Ghoul it mentions that the nails harden, not just lengthen. Even if cut short, shaped, and polished up they're likely still usable as clawing due to their reinforcement and I think we can let the RAW slide (again, RAW says nothing either way). In the case of my Troll to Dwarf reassignment however, we get: a Dwarf with Troll stats, demal deposits despite his silky smooth skin, and +1 reach.

I don't know, RAW doesn't know. Ask your gamemaster.

[Manunancy]

I would probably reduce the bonus from the claws - even if they're hard, they're no longer as long and sharp, wichi severly limits their utility.

[ElFenrir]

I do think Biosculpting is defintiely a GM call.

My Fomori with silky skin and some moderate resculpting of his face is still obviously some sort of Troll due to his size; he also kept his horns, his pointed ears, and still has 'tusks'-they're just extremely small and poking from the corners of his mouth(looks more like a human with longer bottom teeth.)

However had I gone for the full Metatype Reassignment and said ''Okay, he's a Human/Elven/Ork/Dwarf looking Troll'', then I'd imagine...sure. He'd just be a really strong human, I guess. He may be like, a beefcake and look more like a guy from Hokuto no Ken, but he'd look human I guess. He'd have the same stat bonuses and limitations as a Troll, he'd just be ''a human guy'' for all appearance tests and purposes. A blood/DNA test I'm sure would show the truth(with whatever social concequences for that.)

I could think of some good story-fodder here, actually; a Troll Cop decides to be an Undercover man, but ends up dealing basically purely with, say, anti-meta policlubs. So he takes the Big Dive and just turns himself into a Human and hopes they don't decide to blood test him, maybe. His strength and toughness could be handwaved with 'bioware' (and he could get some kinds of bioware to help lead them off the path there.) I admit, Biosculpting and all of it's stuff is pretty fun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Sengir]

In the case of my Troll to Dwarf reassignment however, we get: a Dwarf with Troll stats, demal deposits despite his silky smooth skin, and +1 reach.

Actually, the description of Metatype Reassignment clearly says that it only allows transformation to and from three metatypes: Elves, dwarfs, and orks (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I agree however that visual inspection should be unable to identify a Ghoul after full-body surgery. With Vision Magnification and a good roll on a medical Knowledge Skill a character might see signs of major cosmetic surgery, but not how the patient looked before the surgery.

[Chainsaw Samurai]

Actually, the description of Metatype Reassignment clearly says that it only allows transformation to and from three metatypes: Elves, dwarfs, and orks (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I agree however that visual inspection should be unable to identify a Ghoul after full-body surgery. With Vision Magnification and a good roll on a medical Knowledge Skill a character might see signs of major cosmetic surgery, but not how the patient looked before the surgery.

It was late and I'm quitting smoking.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It was late and I'm quitting smoking.

That Happens, and Good for You... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Udoshi]

Wouldn't they lose Natural Weapon, because of biosculpting? As in a ghoul gets a permanent manicure so they don't have claws anymore.

I've done this in a game.

They never lose the Natural Weapon quality but we just adjusted the DV/ap of it down to 0. Their natural 'weapon' is now as good as fists, because that is what they now are.

[Chainsaw Samurai]

I've done this in a game.

They never lose the Natural Weapon quality but we just adjusted the DV/ap of it down to 0. Their natural 'weapon' is now as good as fists, because that is what they now are.

And that is probably what makes the most sense.

Did you allow them to remain at P instead of S? Just curious. I'm assuming of course you use an open hand rake rather than a closed fist punch. Regardless of shape/size they are still supposed to be thick and resilient so I'd imagine they could still be used to inflict physical damage by anyone who doesn't mind looking like an angry 14 year old girl.

[Udoshi]

I think it was still P, yeah. Just changed the damage adjustments to 0.

Its not like there isn't precedent for punches doing physical damage already.(cyberlimbs, bone density, hard gloves, etc).

I was playing an awakened character with it, so it was kind of like a crappy alternative to killing hands.

[Midas]

I wonder how permanent the biosculpting would be in the case of a ghoul; I might not repeat the Essence cost, but might require said ghoul to need skin regeneration and nail clipping every 3 months or so if they wanted to stay metahuman looking.

Physical stats can be a giveaway though, including for qualities like Human Looking: if you have Bod 11 you just ain't gonna be able to pull it off no matter how small your tusks are ...

[Neraph]

Now that is a good question. I don't know. Probably? The closest I could figure is what is written for Metatype Reassignment and it mentions that the changes are cosmetic and no metatype bonuses or penalities are obtained with this treatment.

Doesn't say anything at all about the potential of losing bonuses or penalties. For that matter if a Troll were to undergo a metatype reassignment to Dwarf, does he keep his armor and reach?

For the sake of the Ghoul it mentions that the nails harden, not just lengthen. Even if cut short, shaped, and polished up they're likely still usable as clawing due to their reinforcement and I think we can let the RAW slide (again, RAW says nothing either way). In the case of my Troll to Dwarf reassignment however, we get: a Dwarf with Troll stats, demal deposits despite his silky smooth skin, and +1 reach.

I don't know, RAW doesn't know. Ask your gamemaster.

RAW does not include that you lose Powers due to cosmetic bioware, therefore you keep them. This is a game about telling you what you can do and the ramifications of it. For example, getting that same bioware as an Adept (potentially) loses you Adept Powers, but that's because Adept's Powers are linked to Magic. Similarly, if that cosmetic bioware drops a ghoul down below 1 Essence (s)he'd lose their Magic-based Powers. Otherwise, no you don't lose them.

[Yerameyahu]

Yes, you're making the critical mistake of thinking logically about it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) RAW doesn't care about that .

[The Dread Polack]

I think the applications of RAW have been discussed. Here's my personal thoughts.

The physical appearance change due to infection can be drastic, but I think easily changed through biosculpting. IIRC, ghouls lose body hair and fat, and they tend to mostly just look like pasty, cataracted, shriveled versions of their metatype. I think all of that can be fixed.

2) If you don't want conspicuous teeth and claws, then you're going to have to remove them permanently, which means you don't get the claws power any more. Permanent removal meant they won't grow back. IMO, claws are not just large fingernails, and you can't simply trim them to look normal. You might fool people briefly, but it wouldn't be difficult to see that their fingertips are weird.

3) I don't think you could render dermal deposits or the like invisible. Anything that would make dermal deposits look like normal skin would make it mostly if not completely useless.

[Glyph]

For a ghoul trying to "pass" as human, cybereyes and digestive expansion are two other things that are good to have. I agree with The Dread Polack: you should have to either get rid of the fangs and claws, or choose to look like a normal human with fangs and claws (you can always say - irony! - that they are bioware; plenty of freaky mods like fangs, horns, and quills are out there already).

[_Pax._]

What would be an appropriate Perception Threshold to identify him as a Ghoul?

Just by eyeball? Infinite.

You'd have to do a blood test, or a full medical exam, to know.

For a ghoul trying to "pass" as human, cybereyes and digestive expansion are two other things that are good to have. I agree with The Dread Polack: you should have to either get rid of the fangs and claws, or choose to look like a normal human with fangs and claws (you can always say - irony! - that they are bioware; plenty of freaky mods like fangs, horns, and quills are out there already).

Or be (a) a human with Ork Poser, and (b) a variant of Ghoul that doesn't have claws (e.g. Sasobonsam).

[The Dread Polack]

I would assume in the 2070s, cosmetic surgery has continued to advance pretty well. If the player is inspecting the NPC and looking for something out of the ordinary, I'd set one threshold around 2-4, depending on the quality of the work, to know the character "had some work done". To be able to tell "You can tell from the subtle scars around the eyes, mouth, ears, and fingertips that she's really a ghoul," you would need an impressive roll. I might let a medicine check or knowledge representing familiarity with ghouls help with this.

I don't think I'd set a threshold. It would be one of those moments where if the player rolled something that made the table collectively said "Holy Crap!", you should probably give it to them. Of course, if you just decide that you don't want the PCs to know by looking at the character, don't ask let them roll, or don't tell them no matter how high the roll. Hopefully when the truth is finally revealed, they won't complain "What about when I rolled 8 hits on my perception check?!?"

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Hopefully when the truth is finally revealed, they won't complain "What about when I rolled 8 hits on my perception check?!?"

Just tell them the treshold was 15 ^^

[Sengir]

Hopefully when the truth is finally revealed, they won't complain "What about when I rolled 8 hits on my perception check?!?"

Another reason to have Perception rolls done by the GM (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

But surgery scars on face and hands could mean anything, with the medtech of the 2070s, cosmetic hand surgery and full-face makeovers should be just as common as a nose job today. Want a more petite face? Well, obviously you need the hands to go along with it, or do you want to ruin your beautiful new appearance with those construction worker paws?