IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Physical Barrier Spell, how big is a "molecule"?
pbangarth
post Apr 10 2012, 04:51 AM
Post #1


Old Man of the North
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 9,572
Joined: 14-August 03
From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe
Member No.: 5,463



On page 211 of SR4A, it says,
QUOTE
Physical Barrier creates a physical wall. Anything the size of a molecule
(or less) can pass through the barrier, including air or other gases.
Anything bigger treats the barrier as a normal physical wall.


Water is made of free moving molecules, but it is a liquid, not a gas. Is the barrier created by Physical Barrier permeable by water, or for that matter other liquids?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neraph
post Apr 10 2012, 05:04 AM
Post #2


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,542
Joined: 30-September 08
From: D/FW Megaplex
Member No.: 16,387



hehehe....

The more I try and answer this, the more I can't. A solid is simply a freakin' huge molecule, after all...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Midas
post Apr 10 2012, 06:20 AM
Post #3


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 662
Joined: 25-May 11
Member No.: 30,406



The spell description specifically says air and gasses, so for water I would say no; you could argue that the hydrostatic interactions between the water molecules prevent it getting through if you are looking for a technical reason.

Saying that, it could be argued that water as a small molecule (at 18 its molecular weight is less than larger more complex molecules such as smoke, after all) might seep through the barrier slowly, especially if the pressure is high. We would definitely be talking seeping here, so the barrier should to all intensive purposes be effective against a water hose or water jet spell. Not sure I would like to be the mage testing it out as a makeshift escape bubble from a sinking submarine or ship, though ...

GM call, either way.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Makki
post Apr 10 2012, 06:29 AM
Post #4


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,373
Joined: 14-January 10
From: Stuttgart, Germany
Member No.: 18,036



QUOTE (Neraph @ Apr 10 2012, 07:04 AM) *
A solid is simply a freakin' huge molecule, after all...


But a magician is not a chemist or physicist, so he might not know that. He who created the spell believes a molecule is something very very tiny, less than nanometer size. You see, it's about believe, which makes this spell well suiting to a shaman, but a hermetic might struggle with the formula.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Manunancy
post Apr 10 2012, 10:15 AM
Post #5


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 821
Joined: 4-December 09
Member No.: 17,940



If a molecule is going to slip through unimpaired, a monowhip should slice through one just fine...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
UmaroVI
post Apr 10 2012, 10:31 AM
Post #6


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,700
Joined: 1-July 10
Member No.: 18,778



They probably wanted to say "it's air permeable but otherwise solid" but failed chemistry forever.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Yerameyahu
post Apr 10 2012, 11:58 AM
Post #7


Advocatus Diaboli
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 13,994
Joined: 20-November 07
From: USA
Member No.: 14,282



Guys, guys, they said 'anything the *size* of a molecule' can pass… they just didn't say *which* molecule. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Clearly it's a smallish one.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Thanee
post Apr 10 2012, 12:14 PM
Post #8


jacked in
**********

Group: Admin
Posts: 8,915
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 463



I would say yes, liquids can permeate through a barrier, but very slowly.

So, if you use Barrier as a rain-shield, for example, drops of water would collect along the inner surface and drop down, but the bulk of the downpour would be deflected.

A monowhip would be stopped, because of its length, not its thickness.

Bye
Thanee
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Irion
post Apr 10 2012, 12:24 PM
Post #9


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,236
Joined: 27-July 10
Member No.: 18,860



And solids are not molecules in any instance. There are some freaking big molecueles out there... True.
For example a leaf is not a molecule, a steelbar is not really a molecule, plastic is not a molecule and so on.

But yes, some liquides would be able to pass.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neraph
post Apr 10 2012, 12:47 PM
Post #10


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,542
Joined: 30-September 08
From: D/FW Megaplex
Member No.: 16,387



If you see someone hiding behind a Physical Barrier, why not just steam them out? It doesn't block gasses, so just throw some superheated water at them. Does it block the Smoke Indirect Combat Spells?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Yerameyahu
post Apr 10 2012, 12:54 PM
Post #11


Advocatus Diaboli
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 13,994
Joined: 20-November 07
From: USA
Member No.: 14,282



Why would you have some superheated water handy? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Sounds like a GM call. By default (just because they're spells), you'd assume it blocks all indirect combat spells, even Light, Sound, etc.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neraph
post Apr 10 2012, 01:01 PM
Post #12


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,542
Joined: 30-September 08
From: D/FW Megaplex
Member No.: 16,387



QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 10 2012, 07:54 AM) *
Why would you have some superheated water handy? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Sounds like a GM call. By default (just because they're spells), you'd assume it blocks all indirect combat spells, even Light, Sound, etc.

In case there are Physical Barrier spells? Maybe you're playing a Seattle game where it's wet a lot, and you Fireball the area, causing little damage to the people in the barrier but superheating the water around it?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sengir
post Apr 10 2012, 01:22 PM
Post #13


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 5,082
Joined: 3-October 09
From: Kohle, Stahl und Bier
Member No.: 17,709



QUOTE (Neraph @ Apr 10 2012, 01:01 PM) *
In case there are Physical Barrier spells? Maybe you're playing a Seattle game where it's wet a lot, and you Fireball the area, causing little damage to the people in the barrier but superheating the water around it?

Then why not just shoot a fireball at the barrier? The superheated air goes through and everybody is toasted...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Yerameyahu
post Apr 10 2012, 01:24 PM
Post #14


Advocatus Diaboli
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 13,994
Joined: 20-November 07
From: USA
Member No.: 14,282



Haha! It's not *that* wet, and I'm not even sure SR4 has any rules for affecting water (or air) in that way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Halinn
post Apr 10 2012, 02:01 PM
Post #15


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,018
Joined: 3-July 10
Member No.: 18,786



Proteins are molecules. The largest known protein has an empirical formula of C169723H270464N45688O52243S912.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Nath
post Apr 10 2012, 05:28 PM
Post #16


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,756
Joined: 11-December 02
From: France
Member No.: 3,723



Molecules are made of atoms with covalent bonds (they share electrons). Solids are made of atoms or molecules with any kind of chemical bonds that prevent them from flowing. There are solids only made of covalent bonds, like diamond and silicon, which can be considered as a single molecule.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Yerameyahu
post Apr 10 2012, 05:31 PM
Post #17


Advocatus Diaboli
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 13,994
Joined: 20-November 07
From: USA
Member No.: 14,282



That's why the rule refers to some specific (unnamed) reference molecule.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
darthmord
post Apr 10 2012, 07:04 PM
Post #18


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,245
Joined: 27-April 07
From: Running the streets of Southeast Virginia
Member No.: 11,548



QUOTE (pbangarth @ Apr 10 2012, 12:51 AM) *
On page 211 of SR4A, it says,


Water is made of free moving molecules, but it is a liquid, not a gas. Is the barrier created by Physical Barrier permeable by water, or for that matter other liquids?


I have always interpreted it as being like so...

If the object in question is a molecule or smaller, then it passes through. Thus a bullet would not pass through the barrier. Air will pass through. Smoke will not. Water will be stopped but will seep through.

If the compound in question can be dissipated to where it is naked to the human eye, it can pass through the barrier. So aerosol knockout agents and the like, you are going down. Someone floods the area with CO2, you are going to have a bad day.

Area flooded with water? You get to watch a slow & lingering bad day.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neraph
post Apr 11 2012, 05:50 AM
Post #19


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,542
Joined: 30-September 08
From: D/FW Megaplex
Member No.: 16,387



QUOTE (darthmord @ Apr 10 2012, 01:04 PM) *
I have always interpreted it as being like so...

If the object in question is a molecule or smaller, then it passes through. Thus a bullet would not pass through the barrier. Air will pass through. Smoke will not. Water will be stopped but will seep through.

If the compound in question can be dissipated to where it is naked to the human eye, it can pass through the barrier. So aerosol knockout agents and the like, you are going down. Someone floods the area with CO2, you are going to have a bad day.

Area flooded with water? You get to watch a slow & lingering bad day.

QUOTE (Nath @ Apr 10 2012, 11:28 AM) *
Molecules are made of atoms with covalent bonds (they share electrons). Solids are made of atoms or molecules with any kind of chemical bonds that prevent them from flowing. There are solids only made of covalent bonds, like diamond and silicon, which can be considered as a single molecule.

A bullet made of diamond.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Raiki
post Apr 11 2012, 07:07 AM
Post #20


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 233
Joined: 27-September 10
From: New York
Member No.: 19,080



QUOTE (Neraph @ Apr 11 2012, 12:50 AM) *
A bullet made of diamond.


For when you want to kill someone *so badly* that you don't mind spending $10,000 per bullet to do so.

~R~
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Irion
post Apr 11 2012, 07:38 AM
Post #21


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,236
Joined: 27-July 10
Member No.: 18,860



@Neraph
Well, even a diamond does not really work... The problem would be dirt. One other molecule attached to the surface would be enough to stop break the rule...

@Raiki
Nope. To have at least a chance you would need industrial grade diamonds. Natural diamonds would not work at all. They are not "pure"...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Jopp
post Apr 11 2012, 07:43 AM
Post #22


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,925
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 948



Since its *magic* i'd say it allows 'air' (and 'gas' would be equivalent to air) so that people can breathe but stops everything else - I think it is bad to go to far with physics in regards to magic.

The question that remains then is the following.

How deep underwater can I go before the water pressure actually harms my barrier 'bubble' i've made.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
snowRaven
post Apr 11 2012, 12:58 PM
Post #23


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,665
Joined: 26-April 03
From: Sweden
Member No.: 4,516



QUOTE (The Jopp @ Apr 11 2012, 09:43 AM) *
Since its *magic* i'd say it allows 'air' (and 'gas' would be equivalent to air) so that people can breathe but stops everything else - I think it is bad to go to far with physics in regards to magic.

The question that remains then is the following.

How deep underwater can I go before the water pressure actually harms my barrier 'bubble' i've made.


Since air gets through the barrier, either the bubble would float, or all the air would rise to the surface of the water making the barrier collapse upon itself until you are the only thing in it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Jopp
post Apr 11 2012, 01:08 PM
Post #24


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,925
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 948



QUOTE (snowRaven @ Apr 11 2012, 01:58 PM) *
Since air gets through the barrier, either the bubble would float, or all the air would rise to the surface of the water making the barrier collapse upon itself until you are the only thing in it.


Well, since the bubble does not defy gravity (levitate spell does that) then as long as the people inside the bubble weight more than the air it should sink.

Ooh, I like the shrinking bubble theory. The deeper you go the smaller the bubble becomes as it collapses unto itself, crushing the person inside it as it becomes smaller and smaller due to crushing pressure.

*squish* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neraph
post Apr 11 2012, 01:10 PM
Post #25


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,542
Joined: 30-September 08
From: D/FW Megaplex
Member No.: 16,387



The gas would escape, leaving a vacuum.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 28th March 2024 - 12:13 PM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.