Physical Barrier Spell, how big is a "molecule"? |
Physical Barrier Spell, how big is a "molecule"? |
Apr 10 2012, 04:51 AM
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#1
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Old Man of the North Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 9,572 Joined: 14-August 03 From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe Member No.: 5,463 |
On page 211 of SR4A, it says,
QUOTE Physical Barrier creates a physical wall. Anything the size of a molecule (or less) can pass through the barrier, including air or other gases. Anything bigger treats the barrier as a normal physical wall. Water is made of free moving molecules, but it is a liquid, not a gas. Is the barrier created by Physical Barrier permeable by water, or for that matter other liquids? |
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Apr 10 2012, 05:04 AM
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#2
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,542 Joined: 30-September 08 From: D/FW Megaplex Member No.: 16,387 |
hehehe....
The more I try and answer this, the more I can't. A solid is simply a freakin' huge molecule, after all... |
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Apr 10 2012, 06:20 AM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 662 Joined: 25-May 11 Member No.: 30,406 |
The spell description specifically says air and gasses, so for water I would say no; you could argue that the hydrostatic interactions between the water molecules prevent it getting through if you are looking for a technical reason.
Saying that, it could be argued that water as a small molecule (at 18 its molecular weight is less than larger more complex molecules such as smoke, after all) might seep through the barrier slowly, especially if the pressure is high. We would definitely be talking seeping here, so the barrier should to all intensive purposes be effective against a water hose or water jet spell. Not sure I would like to be the mage testing it out as a makeshift escape bubble from a sinking submarine or ship, though ... GM call, either way. |
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Apr 10 2012, 06:29 AM
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#4
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,373 Joined: 14-January 10 From: Stuttgart, Germany Member No.: 18,036 |
A solid is simply a freakin' huge molecule, after all... But a magician is not a chemist or physicist, so he might not know that. He who created the spell believes a molecule is something very very tiny, less than nanometer size. You see, it's about believe, which makes this spell well suiting to a shaman, but a hermetic might struggle with the formula. |
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Apr 10 2012, 10:15 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 821 Joined: 4-December 09 Member No.: 17,940 |
If a molecule is going to slip through unimpaired, a monowhip should slice through one just fine...
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Apr 10 2012, 10:31 AM
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#6
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,700 Joined: 1-July 10 Member No.: 18,778 |
They probably wanted to say "it's air permeable but otherwise solid" but failed chemistry forever.
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Apr 10 2012, 11:58 AM
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#7
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
Guys, guys, they said 'anything the *size* of a molecule' can pass… they just didn't say *which* molecule. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Clearly it's a smallish one.
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Apr 10 2012, 12:14 PM
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#8
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 8,915 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
I would say yes, liquids can permeate through a barrier, but very slowly.
So, if you use Barrier as a rain-shield, for example, drops of water would collect along the inner surface and drop down, but the bulk of the downpour would be deflected. A monowhip would be stopped, because of its length, not its thickness. Bye Thanee |
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Apr 10 2012, 12:24 PM
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#9
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,236 Joined: 27-July 10 Member No.: 18,860 |
And solids are not molecules in any instance. There are some freaking big molecueles out there... True.
For example a leaf is not a molecule, a steelbar is not really a molecule, plastic is not a molecule and so on. But yes, some liquides would be able to pass. |
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Apr 10 2012, 12:47 PM
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#10
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,542 Joined: 30-September 08 From: D/FW Megaplex Member No.: 16,387 |
If you see someone hiding behind a Physical Barrier, why not just steam them out? It doesn't block gasses, so just throw some superheated water at them. Does it block the Smoke Indirect Combat Spells?
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Apr 10 2012, 12:54 PM
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#11
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
Why would you have some superheated water handy? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Sounds like a GM call. By default (just because they're spells), you'd assume it blocks all indirect combat spells, even Light, Sound, etc. |
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Apr 10 2012, 01:01 PM
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#12
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,542 Joined: 30-September 08 From: D/FW Megaplex Member No.: 16,387 |
Why would you have some superheated water handy? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Sounds like a GM call. By default (just because they're spells), you'd assume it blocks all indirect combat spells, even Light, Sound, etc. In case there are Physical Barrier spells? Maybe you're playing a Seattle game where it's wet a lot, and you Fireball the area, causing little damage to the people in the barrier but superheating the water around it? |
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Apr 10 2012, 01:22 PM
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#13
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Great Dragon Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,082 Joined: 3-October 09 From: Kohle, Stahl und Bier Member No.: 17,709 |
In case there are Physical Barrier spells? Maybe you're playing a Seattle game where it's wet a lot, and you Fireball the area, causing little damage to the people in the barrier but superheating the water around it? Then why not just shoot a fireball at the barrier? The superheated air goes through and everybody is toasted... |
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Apr 10 2012, 01:24 PM
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#14
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
Haha! It's not *that* wet, and I'm not even sure SR4 has any rules for affecting water (or air) in that way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Apr 10 2012, 02:01 PM
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#15
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,018 Joined: 3-July 10 Member No.: 18,786 |
Proteins are molecules. The largest known protein has an empirical formula of C169723H270464N45688O52243S912.
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Apr 10 2012, 05:28 PM
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#16
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,756 Joined: 11-December 02 From: France Member No.: 3,723 |
Molecules are made of atoms with covalent bonds (they share electrons). Solids are made of atoms or molecules with any kind of chemical bonds that prevent them from flowing. There are solids only made of covalent bonds, like diamond and silicon, which can be considered as a single molecule.
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Apr 10 2012, 05:31 PM
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#17
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
That's why the rule refers to some specific (unnamed) reference molecule.
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Apr 10 2012, 07:04 PM
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#18
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,245 Joined: 27-April 07 From: Running the streets of Southeast Virginia Member No.: 11,548 |
On page 211 of SR4A, it says, Water is made of free moving molecules, but it is a liquid, not a gas. Is the barrier created by Physical Barrier permeable by water, or for that matter other liquids? I have always interpreted it as being like so... If the object in question is a molecule or smaller, then it passes through. Thus a bullet would not pass through the barrier. Air will pass through. Smoke will not. Water will be stopped but will seep through. If the compound in question can be dissipated to where it is naked to the human eye, it can pass through the barrier. So aerosol knockout agents and the like, you are going down. Someone floods the area with CO2, you are going to have a bad day. Area flooded with water? You get to watch a slow & lingering bad day. |
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Apr 11 2012, 05:50 AM
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#19
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,542 Joined: 30-September 08 From: D/FW Megaplex Member No.: 16,387 |
I have always interpreted it as being like so... If the object in question is a molecule or smaller, then it passes through. Thus a bullet would not pass through the barrier. Air will pass through. Smoke will not. Water will be stopped but will seep through. If the compound in question can be dissipated to where it is naked to the human eye, it can pass through the barrier. So aerosol knockout agents and the like, you are going down. Someone floods the area with CO2, you are going to have a bad day. Area flooded with water? You get to watch a slow & lingering bad day. Molecules are made of atoms with covalent bonds (they share electrons). Solids are made of atoms or molecules with any kind of chemical bonds that prevent them from flowing. There are solids only made of covalent bonds, like diamond and silicon, which can be considered as a single molecule. A bullet made of diamond. |
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Apr 11 2012, 07:07 AM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 233 Joined: 27-September 10 From: New York Member No.: 19,080 |
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Apr 11 2012, 07:38 AM
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#21
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,236 Joined: 27-July 10 Member No.: 18,860 |
@Neraph
Well, even a diamond does not really work... The problem would be dirt. One other molecule attached to the surface would be enough to stop break the rule... @Raiki Nope. To have at least a chance you would need industrial grade diamonds. Natural diamonds would not work at all. They are not "pure"... |
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Apr 11 2012, 07:43 AM
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#22
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
Since its *magic* i'd say it allows 'air' (and 'gas' would be equivalent to air) so that people can breathe but stops everything else - I think it is bad to go to far with physics in regards to magic.
The question that remains then is the following. How deep underwater can I go before the water pressure actually harms my barrier 'bubble' i've made. |
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Apr 11 2012, 12:58 PM
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#23
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,665 Joined: 26-April 03 From: Sweden Member No.: 4,516 |
Since its *magic* i'd say it allows 'air' (and 'gas' would be equivalent to air) so that people can breathe but stops everything else - I think it is bad to go to far with physics in regards to magic. The question that remains then is the following. How deep underwater can I go before the water pressure actually harms my barrier 'bubble' i've made. Since air gets through the barrier, either the bubble would float, or all the air would rise to the surface of the water making the barrier collapse upon itself until you are the only thing in it. |
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Apr 11 2012, 01:08 PM
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#24
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
Since air gets through the barrier, either the bubble would float, or all the air would rise to the surface of the water making the barrier collapse upon itself until you are the only thing in it. Well, since the bubble does not defy gravity (levitate spell does that) then as long as the people inside the bubble weight more than the air it should sink. Ooh, I like the shrinking bubble theory. The deeper you go the smaller the bubble becomes as it collapses unto itself, crushing the person inside it as it becomes smaller and smaller due to crushing pressure. *squish* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif) |
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Apr 11 2012, 01:10 PM
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#25
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,542 Joined: 30-September 08 From: D/FW Megaplex Member No.: 16,387 |
The gas would escape, leaving a vacuum.
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