Making damage spikier?, or how to make that 9mm scary again Options

[counterveil]

So as it is, Shadowrun damage in the hands of "average" people is not a very scary prospect, even if you don't have any armor. Consider an untrained person firing a light pistol at point blank range (3 agi, -1 untrained, +2 point blank) at me, an average person with 3 rea, 3 body (10 Physical Condition Monitor boxes). Let's give them the benefit of the doubt and say that they got 4 successes and I got none on my Reaction test, then utterly failed my Body test to soak the damage. With a light pistol (4P) and under the most favorable circumstances, this person *still* only got 8 boxes of damage, which is completely non-life-threatening.

At risk of sounding like a "realist", average people are killed by 9mm pistols in the hands of untrained assailants on occasion (and often accidentally). I'm not looking to completely mirror reality here, but it seems a bit off to me that under the best of circumstances an untrained person cannot kill, or at least incapacitate, an average person with a light pistol.

I considered instantiating bleeding damage for any hit that does > 1/2 condition monitor, implemented in a way similar to when one's damage exceeds the condition monitor (SR4a, p.163) but figured that might require a little too much bookkeeping, especially for NPCs.

I've also played - gasp! - Savage Worlds, where being hit *could* be a scary prospect as weapon damage dice explode and a very lucky dice roll could potentially drop you in one hit. A little too spiky and unreliable for my taste, but it did have the desired effect of making people try very hard not to be hit.

A comfortable median would be ideal...anyone here implement custom house rules to make damage a little scarier when facing mooks? I'd appreciate any feedback.

[VykosDarkSoul]

but you forgot that your average joe can shoot twice in one combat turn, making it just a slight bit deadlier

[thorya]

Most gunshot wounds from a single 9 mm are not fatal. I believe the statistic I've seen is 5%, but I don't have the source for you. Even in Iraq and Afghanistan where most of the injuries are caused by AK-47's gun shot wounds are only lethal 20% of the time. (Yes, I know that introduces lots of other factors such as body armor, multiple hits, etc.)

http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/19/...ldiers-in-iraq/

So I don't think it's unreasonable that almost anyone can survive a gunshot wound and with two shots under the current rules if you really are completely unarmored you're in bad shape pretty quickly. Yeah, it does lose some of the edge cases, like the guy that gets by a .22 LR in the eye that goes right through to his brain and makes him a vegetable.

But if you want to make it more lethal, you could just bump every weapon's damage up by 1. It's a quick easy fix that doesn't shift the balance too much. Alternately, add +2, +3 or +4 damage for a glitch on the reaction roll (whichever gives you the lethality you're looking for). Glitches on reaction rolls are likely enough to keep this in the game even when huge dice pools have otherwise rendered glitches moot. Even if you're rolling 8 defense, you have a 3% chance of screwing up and dodging the wrong way so the shot is more lethal, which is low but high enough to be an occasional concern. Your 3 rea guy has a 7% chance of screwing up and upping their damage. This can be even more effective at putting the fear of guns into your players if you use more 1's than successes as a glitches.

I'm more bothered by the fact that your gun (even if it's a revolver) is more likely to jam if you've never fired one before and that irritating bouncing around that glitches do, but that's another issue. But it's one of those problems with abstractions.

[almost normal]

SR has a suggestion to make all weapons a flat +2DV. Im using that tonight. I'll let you know how it goes.

[counterveil]

Thanks for the replies folks!

thorya, you're right that most 9mm wounds are non-fatal, I'm just mildly irritated that under the best conditions it is 100% non-lethal between like opponents. Your point that glitches could be made to create a more fatal attack is a good one though!

I may take up the idea of adding either +1DV or +2DV to all damage; that might help make my game a little grittier (and maybe even faster!).

I've already merged the Physical and Stun monitors into one monitor based on 4+Wil+Body, which does speed things up a bit and encourages a mix of non-lethal with lethal combat for some cool [melee] combos.

[Chainsaw Samurai]

For starters "only 8P which isn't life threatening"

Around 95% of the people who go into the hospital with a single gunshot wound survive.

Unless it hits an immediately vital organ or artery, bullets hurt but don't kill. Even in the case of clipping an artery, the bullet doesn't technically kill you, it just creates a condition in which you can bleed to death. There are very few places a human body can be penetrated by a single 9mm bullet and then "magically fall over dead" without an awful lot of pain, drama, and bleeding first. Anywhere else and you're more likely to die of infection than even blood loss. In fact, most people taking 50+ cal ball slugs in the Revolutionary or Civil wars died from infection rather than the actual trauma of the bullet.

Shadowrun is also a game with Armor. Tons of it. That 9mil wont penetrate the thinnest of ballistic vests, hell it wont penetrate half a phone book.

Conversely 95% of of penetrating gunshot wounds to the head are fatal.

Most of the fatalities in Iraq are from large amounts of devastating trauma (Explosions, severe vehicular accidents) and the few gunshot wound deaths are usually gunshot woundS deaths.

But that's the difference between a good attack roll and a bad attack roll. The system works. You want to make the combat system more threatening? Get rid of the ridiculous amount of armor stacking, hell put a solid cap on the amount of armor people can wear period.

I also think you're shooting yourself in the foot with your mixed monitor. Not that it is necessarily a bad idea, but that Soak pools are already way outpacing damage pools so adding Will into the mix isn't going to be doing you any favors.

But seriously, if you don't come down on Armor like a bag of hammers then it doesn't much matter how much DV you add to these rinky dink pistols. The current Armor and soak rules could put that average person behind a tank rather than a 9mil and have similarly disappointing results.

[SpellBinder]

SR has a suggestion to make all weapons a flat +2DV. Im using that tonight. I'll let you know how it goes.

I've used this myself. Made my players either take cover more often, or do their best to try and act before the bad guys.

Also mind that glitches don't always mean the gun jams. You can have nothing special happen (as far as the players know), you hit something other than your intended target (try to shoot that tire, and instead hit a passenger), or the shooter simply drops the gun because of an unexpected kick or slide bite.

[Chainsaw Samurai]

Disclaimer: I don't think realism belongs in storytelling systems or video games. This is because reality sucks. If you like reality so much go outside! You'll be back to the table by the end of the week. This is because reality sucks.

Speaking more on armor.

I like that Shadowrun makes a distinction between Ballistic and Impact armor, it is an important distinction to make and it is done in a fairly streamlined and efficient manner.

I don't much care for realism in my games. However this is a thread directly relating to realism, so I'll give it a go.

Why does Armor give soak dice? An attack fails to penetrate a means of protection, converts the damage to stun, and then helps the wearer absorb that impact. OK that's fine, that makes sense and is relayed into the rules in an efficient manner.

Why does Armor that has been successfully penetrated add to soak? If the attack has penetrated your defenses, why does it get any say whatsoever about how much of a wound is left. You can look at piercing weapons vs chain mail or any number of police/military casualties where their vests have been penetrated. If something has enough punch to go through a piece of armor, why should the vest get to help soak? It had its say.

This will add some more dreaded realism because it accurately depicts how modern body armor actually works. Ballistic equipment is tested and rated to take a certain amount of force, if this force is exceeded then you're pretty much on your own.

This is not a system I would put in to one of my games, but we don't stack endless amounts of armor (anymore) and it is not a feel I'm trying to portray. However it is more thoughts on the subject and you can go ahead and work it out however you see fit for your game.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Disclaimer: I don't think realism belongs in storytelling systems or video games. This is because reality sucks. If you like reality so much go outside! You'll be back to the table by the end of the week. This is because reality sucks.

Speaking more on armor.

I like that Shadowrun makes a distinction between Ballistic and Impact armor, it is an important distinction to make and it is done in a fairly streamlined and efficient manner.

I don't much care for realism in my games. However this is a thread directly relating to realism, so I'll give it a go.

Why does Armor give soak dice? An attack fails to penetrate a means of protection, converts the damage to stun, and then helps the wearer absorb that impact. OK that's fine, that makes sense and is relayed into the rules in an efficient manner.

Why does Armor that has been successfully penetrated add to soak? If the attack has penetrated your defenses, why does it get any say whatsoever about how much of a wound is left. You can look at piercing weapons vs chain mail or any number of police/military casualties where their vests have been penetrated. If something has enough punch to go through a piece of armor, why should the vest get to help soak? It had its say.

This will add some more dreaded realism because it accurately depicts how modern body armor actually works. Ballistic equipment is tested and rated to take a certain amount of force, if this force is exceeded then you're pretty much on your own.

This is not a system I would put in to one of my games, but we don't stack endless amounts of armor (anymore) and it is not a feel I'm trying to portray. However it is more thoughts on the subject and you can go ahead and work it out however you see fit for your game.

The Armor adds to damage resistance when penetrated because it still has an impact on the damage inflicted. The armor absorbs some of the damage (and kinetic force) as the bullet passes through. The reason it is physical damage is because the bullet actually successfully penetrated the armor, rather than the stun of a non-penetrating attack. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[SpellBinder]

...
Why does Armor that has been successfully penetrated add to soak? If the attack has penetrated your defenses, why does it get any say whatsoever about how much of a wound is left. You can look at piercing weapons vs chain mail or any number of police/military casualties where their vests have been penetrated. If something has enough punch to go through a piece of armor, why should the vest get to help soak? It had its say.

This will add some more dreaded realism because it accurately depicts how modern body armor actually works. Ballistic equipment is tested and rated to take a certain amount of force, if this force is exceeded then you're pretty much on your own.

...

A few thoughts:

1: The strike that got through was a lucky one.
2: You're not always able to hit the exact same square centimeter spot you did when the last attack got through.
3: You're hitting a different piece of body armor (first you hit the guy in the chest, second you hit him in the thigh).

IIRC there's already suggestions on how to handle armor degradation in the game rules.

[counterveil]

chainsaw samurai, agreed on the reality bit - I'm not looking for a complete mirror of reality here nor am I trying to match statistics of real-world gunshots. What I'm *mostly* trying to get to is to make getting shot Not A Good Thing™. Armor stacking definitely detracts from that, but we don't do armor stacking much, though I may make certain exceptions for a character who has defined himself as "the guy that takes bullet hits".

If I *were* to do some realistic mirror, it would probably make an unwieldy game that no one actually wants to play, so I may take the option of just upping the lethality rating of damage across the board (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Chainsaw Samurai]

The Armor adds to damage resistance when penetrated because it still has an impact on the damage inflicted. The armor absorbs some of the damage (and kinetic force) as the bullet passes through. The reason it is physical damage is because the bullet actually successfully penetrated the armor, rather than the stun of a non-penetrating attack.

Blah blah, first off, again, I don't care how current armor works (except that it is too readily available and you can stack too much, but that isn't a problem at my table), I was trying to help the OP out.

Second, you're right. The armor does have a say in what sort of damage a penetrating projectile causes... usually it makes it deal more damage. This is clearly seen in gel tests regarding a 5.7 (used by the P90 and Five-seveN), but works for plenty of rounds. I mention 5.7 rounds specifically because there is less of a clusterfluff of videos so you're more likely to find the ones I'm talking about in a google search if you care enough to do one.

Knives and piercing weapons work similarly. If you've got enough force to penetrate to the hilt you have enough force to penetrate to the hilt. Period. That extra half an inch of armor between your skin and the hilt does approximately dick-all. You should be able to google an American Solider (Officer Candidate no less!) who died because he bet another American Solider that the vest would stop a combat knife. Something that would be hilarious if it wasn't true.

Point is, penetrated armor is not your friend. It makes bullets worse (slowing them down to cause more hydro-static shock on a through and through or making more interesting tumble patterns on a round that stays inside you) and stabbing/slashing weaponry accomplish practically the same with a wee bit more effort on the wielders part. The only area where the current rules make sense from a realism standpoint is potentially blunt force trauma, although this is likely because it makes sense mentally and there are no hard statistics currently (because it is an outdated method of killing people as far as modern warfare is concerned).

But, again, I have no beef with how Armor,or Body, or Soak rules work in game (aside from retarded stacking). I mainly don't have a problem with how they work because they are EASY. Easy rules -- easy to implement, easy to roll, easy to remember -- are the cornerstone of good TTRPG rules as far as I'm concerned. I was merely making a suggestion for someone who apparently does have a beef with how damage works in his game.

A few thoughts:

1: The strike that got through was a lucky one.
2: You're not always able to hit the exact same square centimeter spot you did when the last attack got through.
3: You're hitting a different piece of body armor (first you hit the guy in the chest, second you hit him in the thigh).

IIRC there's already suggestions on how to handle armor degradation in the game rules.

For the love of god don't get me started on any of this.

Too late.

Yes I was discussing the effect of ONE penetrating shot and why Armor shouldn't help you soak that ONE penetrating shot if you're worried about "realism." Obviously a second round fired shouldn't get through unless it too mechanically penetrated the protection in question. Yes there are types of armor where once penetrated by a single round they become useless to all others, but I will assume that sort of armor is as antiquated in Shadowrun as it is in modern times (now if we could only get Soldiers to stop wearing the stuff). Point is, I was talking about a round by round basis.

You shouldn't have even mentioned the centimeter by centimeter tracking of armor as a concept. The people who post on any given forum represent a small portion of a community compared to those that just read or lurk. I am absolutely positive that the Adrian Monk of Gamemastering is right now drawing up a painstaking implementation of how to do this. You just made his players miserable. I hope you're proud of yourself, Spellbinder.

As to Armor degradation: I see a lot of this in video games. Cute concept, horrible execution. Same goes for how it is implemented in TTRPGs. Horrible bullshit which over complicates the system for everyone. The only thing this is useful for is if everyone at your table likes arguing at the tops of their lungs for the sake of accomplishing nothing except confusing everyone around you (typical TTRPG arguing), and if that is the case you could accomplish the same amount by participating in your local government. The best form of armor degradation is to tell the player, after combat, "I think we can agree that X piece is trashed and you need to buy a new one," which serves as downtime-upkeep and doesn't slow the game down any.

[VykosDarkSoul]

I think they went over that rather well however. Its titled "Called Shot". and if you make it, they dont get to add their armor to their soak, or rather, that is one of the options you can choose.

[kzt]

Most gunshot wounds from a single 9 mm are not fatal. I believe the statistic I've seen is 5%, but I don't have the source for you. Even in Iraq and Afghanistan where most of the injuries are caused by AK-47's gun shot wounds are only lethal 20% of the time. (Yes, I know that introduces lots of other factors such as body armor, multiple hits, etc.)

The odds are low, but people get killed by single .22 pistol bullets to the chest all the time. A clerk deliberately shot a guy trying to rob her in the knee a few weeks ago and he was dead by the time the cops arrived at her store. People also get through and through rifle hits, where essentially the guy ends up with a 7.6mm hole through them that ju st hurts a lot. So yeah, if you are trying to model gunshots damage should be a lot more variable.

But is that really what you want to do? These things work both ways. And having the fat gang member your player shot 5 times in the torso with a .357 magnum then shoot in his general direction with a .22 derringer, hit just above the players body armor body armor in his left armpit, and then inflict fatal damage on his heart while said gang banger is not terribly injured by the players gunfire might be realistic (It's how a SC Highway Patrol officer got killed in 1992 by a fat drug trafficker with a .22 derringer) it does tend to be less fun for the players than you might think.

[D2F]

Disclaimer: I don't think realism belongs in storytelling systems or video games. This is because reality sucks. If you like reality so much go outside! You'll be back to the table by the end of the week. This is because reality sucks.

That's the wrong attitude. "Realism" in games means internal consistency of the game world. A game world closely resembling the real world (as for excemple shadowrun does) needs to closely resemble its internal consitency.
Now, whether you like that playstyle or not, is up to you (not going to delve into gamking theory and the whole GNS debate here), but to belittle simulationist game systems, while PLAYING one is a bit hypocritical, regardless of your gaming motivation.


That said, back on topic:
I agree with your assessment on armor for the most part. Armor penetrated is armor penetrated. A bullet that got past the armor, even while it slowed down, will still be fast enough to cause considerable trauma, the difference being negligible. I'd have to see a ballistics test to make up my mind, though. In the meantime, I agree with you.

As for the initial question by the OP, why not use the "More Lethal Gameplay" rules from the BBB?

More Lethal Gameplay
You may desire your games to be deadlier, in which case these options are suggested:
• Increase the DV of weapons by 2 across the board and don’t convert
Physical damage to Stun if the DV doesn’t exceed the Armor rating.
• Only allow full defense actions (p. 148) when they are taken on the character’s
Action Phase.
• Treat glitches on Damage Resistance Tests as severe wounds—bleeding,
broken bones, mangled limbs, ruined implants that will require special medical
care or repair.

Especially the +2DV part should have your intended effect.

[Chainsaw Samurai]

That's the wrong attitude. "Realism" in games means internal consistency of the game world. A game world closely resembling the real world (as for excemple shadowrun does) needs to closely resemble its internal consitency.
Now, whether you like that playstyle or not, is up to you (not going to delve into gamking theory and the whole GNS debate here), but to belittle simulationist game systems, while PLAYING one is a bit hypocritical, regardless of your gaming motivation.

You strawmanned what I was getting at a bit, but I suppose I could have been clearer. There is plenty to get uppity about in regards to Shadowrun and "realism." Of course a system has to have internal consistency, and I'm saying that those systems should be as streamlined as possible to facilitate play (as Shadowrun does).

The fact that Shadowrun doesn't have a hit location system, a system for dynamic wound results (bleeding, broken bones, etc), a system for armor penalties that doesn't involve being directly over encumbered (simulating the inflexibility of some armors for instance), and the fact that I don't need to bust out a graphing calculator to determine silly things like bullet drop or wind affecting an 800m shot means that Shadowrun is not a "Realistic Simulation." As it bloody well shouldn't be.

There is a pretty big difference between a game having its own internal consistency with its rules and flat out "realism." Usually the biggest difference is that the former is simplified and easy to play while the latter is complicated and obnoxious.

As far as that listing for lethal gameplay goes, I think the nastiest thing on there is the Full Defense ruling. Having to plan your defense before and regardless of whether you think you're going to be directly attacked at is going to be very deadly. I also support a system which has dynamic wound penalties like blood loss, but you're going to be hard pressed to come up with one that will work well and remain consistent with the rest of the Shadowrun rules on your own without some long term testing.

[D2F]

You strawmanned what I was getting at a bit, but I suppose I could have been clearer. There is plenty to get uppity about in regards to Shadowrun and "realism." Of course a system has to have internal consistency, and I'm saying that those systems should be as streamlined as possible to facilitate play (as Shadowrun does).

The fact that Shadowrun doesn't have a hit location system, a system for dynamic wound results (bleeding, broken bones, etc), a system for armor penalties that doesn't involve being directly over encumbered (simulating the inflexibility of some armors for instance), and the fact that I don't need to bust out a graphing calculator to determine silly things like bullet drop or wind affecting an 800m shot means that Shadowrun is not a "Realistic Simulation." As it bloody well shouldn't be.

There is a pretty big difference between a game having its own internal consistency with its rules and flat out "realism." Usually the biggest difference is that the former is simplified and easy to play while the latter is complicated and obnoxious.

As far as that listing for lethal gameplay goes, I think the nastiest thing on there is the Full Defense ruling. Having to plan your defense before and regardless of whether you think you're going to be directly attacked at is going to be very deadly. I also support a system which has dynamic wound penalties like blood loss, but you're going to be hard pressed to come up with one that will work well and remain consistent with the rest of the Shadowrun rules on your own without some long term testing.

There I can agree more with. Finding the proper balance between realistic depictions of real physics and playability is a failry difficult thing to do.
When it comes to proper bleeding rules, using the abstraction level of SR, it isn't actually that hard to do. It's additional bookkeeping, though. Simply have every wounding hit scoring more than 3 boxes of damage deal a "bleeding marker" for every 3 full boxes of damage it dealt. Then, at the start of every 10th round, receive additional boxes of damage equal to the number of bleeding markers. Realistic? No. Does it convey blood loss through bleeding? Yes. Is it worth the extra bookkeeping? I don't think so.
A thing more relevant to my interests on the subject of combat realism would be the effects of wound shock and an adrenaline dump. They are very real factors in actual combat, yet completely absent from SR. Then again, SR combat tends to be over in a few seconds, anyway.

Has anyone thought of a comfortable way, to get combat durations in SR to more cineastic levels?

[The Jopp]

Well, I would not make the weapons 'deadlier' but focus more on the drawbacks on getting shot.

-Wound Modifiers
-Bleeding
-Hit Locations

Hit locations can be iffy but very effective in driving home a point in how severe a damage is especially if you just dont say that their head is blown off (unless they literally take enough damage to blow their head off).
8 boxes out of 10 is rather severe damage from a pistol as you are only 2 from passing out.

It can also be very much up to the players to actually roleplay what damage they have taken and not just carry on with a negative dice modifier which is something one often observe (combat cybertroll im looking at you...even with legs blown off you 'charge' the enemy in your turn...)

You could also split up damage modifiers depending on hit locations:
Head - 8 boxes of damage (Apply wound modifiers to ranged combat, perception and balance tests and Logic)
Legs - Apply wound modifiers to Balance and Acrobatics and Dodge and Melee, reduce movement rate by modifier.
Arms - Melee and firing a weapon
Torso - As per normal rules

To be even more evil - Stack them.

Got a headwound at a -1, arm wound at -2 and a sucking chest wound at -2 then you have -5D6 to shoot that pistol.

This would also make it a bit easier to disable a target without killing them (kneecaps for the win). In the end it is very much about how much bookkeeping as compared to abstraction of the game that you might want.

[Psikerlord]

Also you can use the serious wounds damage rule from augmentation - if you take 7 boxes plus in one hit, you suffer a serious wound - like losing an arm! So thats pretty damn serious - even if you dont die instantly.

[The Jopp]

Also you can use the serious wounds damage rule from augmentation - if you take 7 boxes plus in one hit, you suffer a serious wound - like losing an arm! So thats pretty damn serious - even if you dont die instantly.

I had actually forgotten this rule. That's excellent for representing excessive damage.

In those situation i would actually give cybernetic replacements an edge.

1: A blown off cybernetic limb wont let you bleed to death
2: It might be repaired and wont need a cloned replacement

[Warlordtheft]

My 0.02 nuyen:

The game is deadly as is. THough your typical holdout (3P) will do nothing to the troll, it can still kill him on a lucky roll or via edge or via skill. Now if said troll is wearing an armor jacket (8/5), and a helmet (+1/+1), and PPS (+2/+3 iirc, maybe more) leaves you with an armor rating of 12 ballistic, 10 impact. Good fragging luck.

How to limit armor in game:
1. If the runners wear too much heavy armor, they begin to look like an HTR team. This results in higher visibility and being labeled a possible threat by LEOs/security.

2. Armor degredation:I go with each physical attack reduces armor the rating by 1 if it hits. An by physical, I mean the initial attack is physical, even if it is later converted to stun.

3. SUPRISE! and called shot are I win buttons, use it only if the players really deserve it. Or more importantly always give the PC's a perception check to se if they notice it is comming.

4. Alternative ammo types do make a big difference.

[The Jopp]

A good post above.

Limit gear to what is plausible for your setting.

Weapons and armor might make joe public suspicious about 'terrorists' and might call the Star. A high fashion meet or a meet in central downtown in the middle of the day will have people look oddly at you - or in the middle of summer if you carry thick concealing clothes.
Even a bulletproof vest might be visible if the weather is warm and you are dressed thinly.

[Chainsaw Samurai]

A good post above.

Limit gear to what is plausible for your setting.

Weapons and armor might make joe public suspicious about 'terrorists' and might call the Star. A high fashion meet or a meet in central downtown in the middle of the day will have people look oddly at you - or in the middle of summer if you carry thick concealing clothes.
Even a bulletproof vest might be visible if the weather is warm and you are dressed thinly.

Eh, that problem still has to do with stacking.

Guy in a lined coat with PPP and Form Fitting can look awfully discreet but pack more armor than Riot Gear

I don't think anyone has an issue with a character who has genuine combat armor, which looks like genuine combat armor, and is as conspicuous as genuine combat armor getting a lot of protection out of said armor. The fact that people can walk around the seattle streets looking relatively normal (it is Seattle 2072... people here barely look "normal" now, but you get the point) and be packing armor comparable to Red Samurai or Medium Military Grade armor. That's a little asinine.

[Halinn]

Guy in a lined coat with PPP and Form Fitting can look awfully discreet but pack more armor than Riot Gear

Or even a well-tailored suit (with PPP and FFBA).

[Dr.Rockso]

Also you can use the serious wounds damage rule from augmentation - if you take 7 boxes plus in one hit, you suffer a serious wound - like losing an arm! So thats pretty damn serious - even if you dont die instantly.

After an edge(1) test i believe.