Called shots - increase DV, Does the increase count as "modified DV"? Options

[Psikerlord]

If you use a called shot to increase your DV by 4 (SR4A p.161), does this count as the "modified DV" and therefore count toward exceeding hardened armor values (like for spirits with immunity to normal weapons), or is the increased damage like a narrow burst, where it doesn't add towards the "modified" DV...?

If it does add, this is a pretty good way for a mundane to beat a spirit isn't it? Heavy pistol, ex-explosive ammo, called shot to add another 3 or 4 DV (downside losing 3 or 4 attack dice, but that's not too bad with a decent starting pool of say 12? Esp if use edge too) - then assuming a hit, gives a much better chance of beating the ITNW hardened armour?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If you use a called shot to increase your DV by 4 (SR4A p.161), does this count as the "modified DV" and therefore count toward exceeding hardened armor values (like for spirits with immunity to normal weapons), or is the increased damage like a narrow burst, where it doesn't add towards the "modified" DV...?

If it does add, this is a pretty good way for a mundane to beat a spirit isn't it? Heavy pistol, ex-explosive ammo, called shot to add another 3 or 4 DV (downside losing 3 or 4 attack dice, but that's not too bad with a decent starting pool of say 12? Esp if use edge too) - then assuming a hit, gives a much better chance of beating the ITNW hardened armour?

Simple Answer: Yes, it counts as Modified DV... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Bearclaw]

Yea, I could see going along with that. Or maybe let them take the -12 to bypass the armor on a rating 6 spirit. Shoot them in the eye or something. It would still put even medium sized spirits beyond the capabilities of even professional shooters, but the world class types, like shadowrunners, could do it.

[Makki]

usually the one with the big gun doesn't have a clue about Spirit anatomy and the GM doesn't grant this choice. I agree and will remember to get an appropriate knowledge skill for my next gunner.

[Yerameyahu]

Agreed: the shooter (the *character*) should have a reasonable 'weak spot' he's aiming for. The GM has to decide if that suggestion is correct. If it's incorrect, the shooter should still aim, lose 4 dice, etc., but there's just no bonus effect. (OOC vs. IC knowledge can hurt you, oh well.) In most cases, this isn't too hard to manage, though. In the shadows, people figure out where most *normal* things are weak.

[snowRaven]

Yeah, if the target is a spirit the shooter better have a suitable knowledge skill at about the same rating as he tries to add DV, or he'll just waste dice.

Player: "I aim for it's heart!"
GM: "Do you know where that is?"
Player: "Left side of it's chest, I guess?"
GM: "It doesn't have a chest, it's a walking dumpster."
Player: "Oh."

[Umidori]

It never made sense to me that you can't make an Attack of Will with a ranged weapon.

If the power of your attack isn't coming from how hard you swing, but rather from your force of will and the strength of your belief, then what difference does it make if you believe that your baseball bat can knock a spirit silly rather than believing that you can blow it away with a full clip from your uzi? If you can convince yourself that your katana is going to slice the spirit in half, why can't you convince yourself that your shotgun is going to blow it's head / leg / mass of plant matter / central blob of water / biggest glowing orb of light / etc. to kingdom come?

[Makki]

Attack of Will ranged would be considerably better (and actually useful) than melee.
Melee: (Banishing) + Willpower vs ~Force x 2
Ranged: (Banishing) + Willpower vs ~Force

By now AoW if pure fluff (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) , unless you happen to have double digit willpower

[Glyph]

I'm kind of dubious about requiring a special knowledge skill simply to use a normal combat mechanic against a spirit. Especially since spirits, even of the exact same type, can appear completely different (a water spirit, for example, could either look like a mermaid, or an amorphous glob of water). I have always seen called shot for the +4 damage mainly as going for accuracy at the expense of the easier task of just shooting at the main body mass, so either spirits have vulnerable areas when they are materialized, or they don't, being nothing but whatever-shaped undifferentiated energy constructs.

If the latter, then called shots wouldn't work; otherwise, they should work, and without any special knowledge skill required. My personal opinion is that if spirits had some special immunity to called shots, or if making a called shot required a special knowledge skill regarding the possible target(s), then it would have been stated in the rules. Still, I probably wouldn't allow called shots to bypass armor - you have to have an unarmored spot to aim for, and spirit "armor" is a property of manifesting, so it would cover it completely.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Attack of Will ranged would be considerably better (and actually useful) than melee.
Melee: (Banishing) + Willpower vs ~Force x 2
Ranged: (Banishing) + Willpower vs ~Force

By now AoW if pure fluff (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) , unless you happen to have double digit willpower

Why?
Leaving aside Force 7+ craziness (Which should be exceedingly rare in my opinion), If your common Spirit is in the 3-4 Range, then the AOW is not all that bad, if you actually build for it. And I do not mean that you optimize for it. Decent Willpower (Already going to have that as a Magician, likely) and either Conjuring Group 3-4 or Banishing 3-4 with AOW Specialty. In my opinion, Competant mages should have conjuring and Sorcery Groups at 3, so, not all that difficult, in my opinion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Of course there are other ways to make it better, but... *Shrug*

[Yerameyahu]

AFAIK, there's something special about forming a physical connection, Umidori.

That might work, Glyph, except it doesn't make sense. The fluff is that it's a weak spot:

A character may “call a shot” (aim for a vulnerable portion of a target) with this Free Action.
[…]
Calling a shot means that the character is aiming at a vulnerable portion of a target, such as a person’s head, the tires or windows of a vehicle, and so on. The gamemaster decides if such a vulnerable spot is accessible.
[…]
Target a vital area in order to increase damage.

You already have mechanics for 'I aim harder'; a Called Shot actually reduces your pool, so you're kinda *not* going for accuracy (unless 'accuracy' means 'hitting a specific weak spot'). What's the fluff for 'I trade increased miss chance (-4 dice) in order to do significantly more damage' otherwise?

As far as I'm concerned, spirits logically *should* be immune to called shots, or at least if they're not copying a form that has weak spots (humanoid, animal-shape, etc.). This is apart from balance issues, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Falconer]

I agree.. you don't need knowledge/anatomy to make a called shot on a person.

Similarly, I've always seen it as just going for a solid hit as opposed to catching a guy in the arm. The difference between a snap shot and an aimed shot (for those who know the difference). It's not as if spirits aren't OP enough already that they need the extra help.

The third use of called shot has always been the most problematic I've found... I aim for the tires... or the radiator (he won't chase us for long when he's overheating badly!). Another good target is exposed external weapon mounts. Then you have to be a bit more creative with adjudicating the effects.


Just saw yera's post... I STRONGLY disagree... just because they're magical doesn't mean they don't have anatomy or no weak spots. I agree with the no shots to bypass armor, but not that you can't utilize the rule to try and hurt them. Any spirit you're going to need to use it against is already going to have a high reaction pool... making the dice trade off hurt a bit more. Just because a spirit decides to materialize as some amorphous amoeba doesn't mean they magically gain some advantage over others of their type. For real fun, see the rules twinks who get it in their head that spirits gain the immunities of their host when they possess vehicles and the like... (the vehicle doesn't take stun damage but the spirit does).

[Yerameyahu]

But you're always trying for center of mass, and Aiming is already a separate thing. In what sense would aiming for the heart *hurt* your chance of an arm hit, for example? (That is, the sum probability of a non-heart hit.) Aiming for something like the *head* is what makes you more likely to miss. Again, the rules specifically and repeatedly say 'vulnerable spot'.

… They don't have anatomy, unless they do (meaning they materialize as a animal-shape; and that, at best, is some kind of psychosomatic effect). That's exactly what I said. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) I also specifically said 'balance issues aside'; I'm only talking about what makes sense, not what helps weaken spirits in a metagame sense. I further also said (before) that the GM is the one who decides if and where a given spirit has a weak spot; 'no called shots on spirits' is just my opinion, not my interpretation of RAW.

It's not a question of 'magically gaining some advantage'—you're assuming humanoid-with-weaknesses is the baseline. You might better say *those* spirits are magically gaining a weakness. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[snowRaven]

IF spirits have vulnerable spots that can be targeted, it doesn't make sense for them to be instinctively known by everyone.

Humans and other mammals, as well as most other animals, have anatomical features that are commonly known as vulnerable or even instincticvelty known to be vulnerable to damage. Not only is it part of common knowledge that stuff like heart, throat, eyes, brain, spinal cord, genitals, guts, kidneys, knees, and lungs are good things to damage on an opponent - a lot of that is instinctive knowledge.

It is neither common knowledge, nor inherited instinct, nor immediately obvious, where to aim to inflict the most damage on a walking tree, lizard-shaped flame, mermaid-horse, animated lightpost, pile of rock and dirt, wheel covered in glowing eyes, etc, etc. Even a spirit shaped as a metahuman or animal may not have the same vulnerable spots (at least not unless it has Realistic Form).

As mentioned above, they may not even have vulnerable spots to target (does the astral form of a magician, for instance?)

[Psikerlord]

Reading over called shots again, it does say you can for example aim for vulnerable spots and it's subject to GM discretion.

In our campaign, we're happy for called shots to apply to spirits most of the time, whether or not someone has spirit knowledge skill, or whatever (I would make it more likely if you had spirit knowledge for spirits that it might be harder to pick a vulnerable spot on for some reason, eg amorphous water blob spirit).... Spirits are very powerful, making them immune to called shots just makes things worse. And there;s no reason why, fluff wise, they should not be vulnerable to say head shots, cut off limb attacks, "hinge attacks" on a dumpster spirit for instance, or a dead eye shot to the "focus spot" of a water spirit - just where the water happens to be darkest at that exact moment, etc and so on.... I think its a good way to try and balance our spirits a bit.

Re tree spirit, fire lizard etc - I would accept all the usual called shot examples as being application - shooting the tree's arm off, or targetting it's roots, for fire lizard head shot, or shot where the heart ought to be , etc... the fluff can work any way you like.

Still, it's all subject to GM discretion, and a case by case basis.

[Yerameyahu]

There's also no reason, fluff-wise, that they *should*. That's all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'm certainly not saying everyone has to say 'no called shots for any spirits'. I just said that, ignoring metagame balance concerns, you shouldn't blindly assume that everything has a convenient +4 DV weak spot… that every character is aware of. Especially a homogenous pile of mana. (I'm all for nerfing spirits, but there are plenty of ways.)

[FriendoftheDork]

I don't allow it to work vs armor for two reasons:

1. There IS already a called shot to ignore armor. If you want to overcome/bypass armor, use that. Why would you ever want to take -8 to bypass an armor jacket, if you can take -4 to increase damage anyway, thus inflicting full lethal damage?

2. Automatic fire doesn't either.

On another note I would usually not allow called shots on spirits either, unless to target any (actual) items it is wearing.

[Yerameyahu]

There is that: it's an unresolved balance issue for the +DV called shot vs. the bypass armor called shot. A separate issue, but certainly one to be dealt with. :/

[Glyph]

I would only disallow armor bypassing on spirits for the same reason I would disallow it on someone wearing a full suit of armor with a helmet - because there is no "unarmored" part to aim for; it is full-form coverage.

Called shot for increased DV, I see as more carefully aiming to damage the target, rather than simply taking any hit that you can get on it. I would let it work on metahumans, spirits, drones, or anything else. "Vulnerable area" could simply mean a more solid shot at the center mass.

[FriendoftheDork]

I would only disallow armor bypassing on spirits for the same reason I would disallow it on someone wearing a full suit of armor with a helmet - because there is no "unarmored" part to aim for; it is full-form coverage.

Called shot for increased DV, I see as more carefully aiming to damage the target, rather than simply taking any hit that you can get on it. I would let it work on metahumans, spirits, drones, or anything else. "Vulnerable area" could simply mean a more solid shot at the center mass.

Yes, in which case increased DV is added after armor is checked for penetration. Following your logic, and mine.

[Yerameyahu]

Can you explain that better, Glyph? I still don't understand how aiming 'center of mass' is a) different from any other shot, b) reflected by a -4 DP, c) is a vulnerable area (even for unarmored animals, there's the ribcage). How do you make a shot more 'solid'?

As far as I can tell, Called Shot for +DV basically means headshots: it's a smaller target that's likely to make you miss entirely, and definitely a weak spot. Even aiming 'for the heart' is more acceptable than just saying 'center of mass'. :/

[Glyph]

Yes, in which case increased DV is added after armor is checked for penetration. Following your logic, and mine.

Why would you think that? That is only the case for narrow bursts, which are a special exception to the normal rules. The DV should be added before checking for armor penetration, as normal.

Can you explain that better, Glyph? I still don't understand how aiming 'center of mass' is a) different from any other shot, b) reflected by a -4 DP, c) is a vulnerable area (even for unarmored animals, there's the ribcage). How do you make a shot more 'solid'?

As far as I can tell, Called Shot for +DV basically means headshots: it's a smaller target that's likely to make you miss entirely, and definitely a weak spot. Even aiming 'for the heart' is more acceptable than just saying 'center of mass'. :/

I consider normal shooting to be snapping off a shot, and a called shot for extra DV to be trying to be a bit more effective (hitting them solidly instead of winging them), at the cost of an increased difficulty in pulling it off. I guess part of it is how I treat mechanics vs. fluff - I tend to prefer to use the mechanics, then describe what happens around them, without worrying about how exactly simulationist the mechanics are.

In other words, I don't worry about how someone can barehanded "parry" a monofilament whip without taking damage, or how someone can parry with a monofilament whip. I would describe the first as a combination of evasion, batting away the tip, etc. and I would describe the second as the whip-wielder slashing the whip around in a defensive arc.

As I said in my original post, spirits won't really be vulnerable to called shots if you think that materialization only creates an undifferentiated amorphous shell of temporarily solid matter. But I disagree with that interpretation. Materialized spirits do seem to have non-astral senses and perceptions, and some free spirits even become attached to some of the pleasures and sensations that can be found in the material world. Even a glob of an elemental should have eye spots or a gaping maw, or something.

[Elfenlied]

At the risk of opening a can of worms: nowhere does it state that a spirits does not have a discernible anatomy, and it enjoys no special immunities (other than ItNW). It's susceptible to poison, explosives, elemental damage etc. Attack forms that cannot harm spirits specifically mention it in their entry (e.g. Nerve Strike), and Called Shots do not mention that.

[snowRaven]

At the risk of opening a can of worms: nowhere does it state that a spirits does not have a discernible anatomy, and it enjoys no special immunities (other than ItNW). It's susceptible to poison, explosives, elemental damage etc. Attack forms that cannot harm spirits specifically mention it in their entry (e.g. Nerve Strike), and Called Shots do not mention that.

I believe it's stated somewhere that spirits are beings of pure mana, or something to that effect.

Poisons do work strictly by RAW it seems, but logically: how can a nerve toxin affect something without a nerve system? To take things one step further - is there anything written in the RAW that prevents toxins from damaging vehicles and drones?

[Irion]

The problem is, that the called shot actually let you aim for a destinctive part of the body. But SR does not know destinctive parts. There is only one target area.

This put the whole called shot a total GM call. If you aim for the arm of the guy, so he drops the weapon, because you need him alive it is a dickish move to give you +4DV an let you kill the guy.