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> Guns and ammo rules clarification, SR4A flechette stats are confusing
FriendoftheDork
post Apr 15 2012, 03:55 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 15 2012, 05:44 PM) *
For all we know, that's another typo. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Just kidding, though the silvergun stats have always been kinda BS. It should have some unique benefits, but it also should have drawbacks (beyond costing a measly +250¥). I mean, christ, vs. the SR4A guns: double-size magazine, the sole BF option, *same* Avail/Legal (despite free suppressor!), and magic +3DV/+3AP 'flechette' ammo? I feel like it was even better in SR3, even. Look how much the Fubuki costs compared to its peers, for the much smaller list of benefits of narrow-only BF and a slightly larger mag.

If I was living in-game, my only question would be 'where's my SMG and AR-size sliverguns!?' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


I thought the point with the Fubuki was that it fires an extra round on a short burst, with minimal recoil? Load it with S&S, and it's the best for it's level of concealment. Even with normal burst rules that is 8S before net hits... far superior to an Predator, and much more easily concealed than a machine pistol. The only real drawback is it's cost, which makes it rare except for execs and possibly Shadowrunners.
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FriendoftheDork
post Apr 15 2012, 03:58 PM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Apr 15 2012, 05:52 PM) *
Whut, it needs exactly 2 net hits to do physical damage to someone wearing an armor vest:
4+5= 9 armor and 8+2=10 damage

And also only targets you need(or really even want to most of the time) to do physical damage are those that are immune to stun damage and really i would prefer not to use a heavy pistol of anykind against those.


Hmm forgot it's Impact armor. Which means you need an Armor Jacket to resist 11 damage. (6+5= 11).
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SpellBinder
post Apr 15 2012, 09:28 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 15 2012, 06:22 AM) *
Apparently you ignore the base AP (maybe it's only for slug-type ammo). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That's been my take on it, for flechette only. All others get their AP modified as described in SR4a, page 323.
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 15 2012, 09:35 PM
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Minimal recoil? It has the same recoil as anything. But I was talking about the comparison to the slivergun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That is, the slivergun has even more benefits and basically no increase in cost, Avail, Legality, etc. A BF-suppressor is 12F by itself!
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FriendoftheDork
post Apr 15 2012, 10:41 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 15 2012, 11:35 PM) *
Minimal recoil? It has the same recoil as anything. But I was talking about the comparison to the slivergun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That is, the slivergun has even more benefits and basically no increase in cost, Avail, Legality, etc. A BF-suppressor is 12F by itself!


I think you've missed the fact that the Yamaha shoots bursts using semi-auto recoil (which is compensated for by using the folding stock). That, in addition to being able to shoot other kinds of ammo, makes it better than the slivergun by far.

12F means you get it at chargen but can't show it with a licence. Then again it is a much more easily concealed weapon, so maybe you won't make so much notice anyway.

Suppressor is nice, but not the end all. It adds a penalty to hearing the shots, but does not make it soundless like in movies.
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 15 2012, 10:51 PM
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That's not the point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The point is that the slivergun has a suppressor, and the other heavy pistols I was comparing don't. It also has BF, they don't. It did (pre-errata) 8P +3AP, which is tons more than the other heavy pistols. It also has a magazine of 30 (!), which is double the closest competitors. All this, and it costs basically the same, same Avail, same Legality, etc.

The Sakura, on the other hand, costs much more, higher Avail, and only has 1, 1.5 little perks. The balance is clearly different, that's the point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I am not comparing the Sakura *to* the slivergun, but the in-group balance of each weapon. I'm just saying, something with this much specialness should cost more, higher Avail, *maybe* F legality, something.

(You're right, I forgot it gets 'SA recoil'; you're also wrong, it fires 3-round bursts.)
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FriendoftheDork
post Apr 15 2012, 11:24 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 16 2012, 12:51 AM) *
That's not the point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The point is that the slivergun has a suppressor, and the other heavy pistols I was comparing don't. It also has BF, they don't. It did (pre-errata) 8P +3AP, which is tons more than the other heavy pistols. It also has a magazine of 30 (!), which is doub
The Sakura, on the other hand, costs much more, higher Avail, and only has 1, 1.5 little perks. The balance is clearly different, that's the point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I am not comparing the Sakura *to* the slivergun, but the in-group balance of each weapon. I'm just saying, something with this much specialness should cost more, higher Avail, *maybe* F legality, something.

(You're right, I forgot it gets 'SA recoil'; you're also wrong, it fires 3-round bursts.)le the closest competitors. All this, and it costs basically the same, same Avail, same Legality, etc.


Pre-errata they were rather OP for a heavy pistol, yes. Despite this many vent for the good old Ares Predator simply for the free smartgun, decent clip size etc, and ammo variety. The 4 round burst might have been creative interpretation due to the fact that the Yamaha has 4 barrels... having only 3 round burst seemed stupid. A light pistol that does +3 damage (after armor) for virtually no drawback might be a bit too much, but I think the high cost justifies it. Want a light machinegun? Or just this pistol here... or maybe a drone? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 15 2012, 11:40 PM
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Hehe. I think the Fubuki *is* nifty. I'm just talking about the oddness of the slivergun, that's all. I think it's a cool (stolen) idea, but everything should have tradeoffs. So, if the slivers go against Impact armor and pierce it well, they shouldn't also do lots more DV; if they do more DV, they shouldn't also have great AP… unless they cost more. If they can be burst-fired, you should pay for that, or it should use Machine-Pistol-like DV. If the slivers are so small it can hold 30 of them, it should be weaker. If it's a 'naturally' supressed BF high DV weapon anti-person weapon, facrissake make it F legality. Etc. The specifics don't matter as much as some overall fairness.
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StConstantine
post Apr 16 2012, 10:44 AM
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Just remember, IRL, shotguns arent particularly better than other weapons aka pistols and rifles, im of the opinion that some shotguns should have a lot lower availability and be much more useful for people who arent very good at shooting stuff since buckshot spreads. Rules wise this could basically be a way for bad npcs to still have a chance of hitting a pc with a gun, despite not doing a whole lot of damage...

Also you have to remember that this isnt a computer game, its a roleplaying game, if i building a character and was of the opinion that he wouldnt have access to a high powered rifle or anything, a shotgun could be more themeatically accurate for him.

Also as far as using random ammunition in random guns, its a little tricky but flechette was explained to me as firing metal slivers or ball bearings instead of the traditional bullet, in a rifle (especially a sniper rifle) this would mil-out the rifling in the barrell pretty quickly and probably wreck the use of the gun for other ammunition. Id probably just say yeah sure, use it but your weapon is going to degrade a lot faster.

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SpellBinder
post Apr 16 2012, 07:00 PM
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Pulling a description from a different RPG, it has artwork of a flechette in a casing of some kind that breaks open once it's left the barrel. For SR4 there could be something similar for the rifled weapons, which is pretty much everything except shotguns (and some really big cannons).
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Eratosthenes
post Apr 16 2012, 07:14 PM
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QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Apr 16 2012, 02:00 PM) *
Pulling a description from a different RPG, it has artwork of a flechette in a casing of some kind that breaks open once it's left the barrel. For SR4 there could be something similar for the rifled weapons, which is pretty much everything except shotguns (and some really big cannons).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flechette

It looks like a small-arms flechette round is one dart, not a cloud of little darts (which is reserved for large calibre or artillery rounds).
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 16 2012, 07:21 PM
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Which is why it has no choke effects. It doesn't explain why the slivergun would be 'special'; for that, you either rule that it's not special (fix all the stats), or just come up with some fluff for why it is. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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kzt
post Apr 16 2012, 09:01 PM
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QUOTE (StConstantine @ Apr 16 2012, 04:44 AM) *
Just remember, IRL, shotguns arent particularly better than other weapons aka pistols and rifles,

In real life, shotguns are vastly better then pistols. They are the most effective close range firearm out there. More effective than sub machine guns. Against people wearing body armor, not so great. Past 25-30 yards, not so great. In close against people not wearing armor - great!

Very few people not wearing body armor get hit multiple times by shotguns without dying. A vastly higher percentage of people struck by one shotgun blast die than from one pistol round. IIRC, .30 cal hunting rifles with hunting ammo and shotguns have about the same probability of immediately incapacitating an opponent, and it's north of 80%.

In SR they are pretty much worthless because SR uses really dumb rules for them.
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FriendoftheDork
post Apr 16 2012, 09:03 PM
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QUOTE (Eratosthenes @ Apr 16 2012, 09:14 PM) *
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flechette

It looks like a small-arms flechette round is one dart, not a cloud of little darts (which is reserved for large calibre or artillery rounds).


After reading this, I came to think of a possible "fix."

1. Flechette ammo is removed from the game.

2. Buckshot is reintroduced, only allowed for shotguns (price and avail. as reg. ammo), and keeping the flechette rules (+2 dam +4 net AP, less range than slugs).

3. Slivergun reduces damage to 4, is reclassified as a light pistol, fires a special small flechette/slivers in a discarding sabot.. which works as APDS (-4 AP ) (cause that's what APDS really IS). Because of the special ammunition and delivery system it uses SA recoil when firing bursts. It has a price 1000 and avail. 12F. Price and avail. of ammo is 50 per 10, and also 12F. It has no real suppressor, but works as if it had because of the special delivery system.

4. APDS is retained as is, and is larger and more costly than the Slivergun slivers.

How does that sound? OP? OK? LOL?
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Chainsaw Samurai
post Apr 17 2012, 03:33 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 15 2012, 03:51 PM) *
That's not the point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The point is that the slivergun has a suppressor, and the other heavy pistols I was comparing don't. It also has BF, they don't. It did (pre-errata) 8P +3AP, which is tons more than the other heavy pistols. It also has a magazine of 30 (!), which is double the closest competitors. All this, and it costs basically the same, same Avail, same Legality, etc.


I don't see how any of that compensates for the fact that it is "Not an Ares Predator."

No self-respecting Street Samurai uses anything else! The only exception were the days of the Predator II, that thing was ugly as sin.
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 17 2012, 12:21 PM
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Haha, I've never understood that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Why wouldn't a sam at least have BF (like a Crusader stolen from the cops)?
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Apr 17 2012, 02:27 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 17 2012, 05:21 AM) *
Haha, I've never understood that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Why wouldn't a sam at least have BF (like a Crusader stolen from the cops)?


Because for that, every self-respecting Street Samurai uses the Street Samurai's Sidekick. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Halinn
post Apr 17 2012, 04:11 PM
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If the Ares Predator is not capable of doing enough damage, it's not because it's not firing flechette or burst fire. It's because the Street Samurai needs to bring out the Ares Alpha instead.
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Chainsaw Samurai
post Apr 17 2012, 06:38 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 17 2012, 05:21 AM) *
Haha, I've never understood that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Why wouldn't a sam at least have BF (like a Crusader stolen from the cops)?



That's what weapon mods are for silly.

BF mod is a simple mod (I think, its actually been forever since I've fiddled with firing selection). Then add your custom look, melee hardening, and a bayonet mount. BOOM! One Ares Predator, ready for action.
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Hida Tsuzua
post Apr 17 2012, 07:14 PM
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QUOTE (Chainsaw Samurai @ Apr 17 2012, 06:38 PM) *
That's what weapon mods are for silly.

BF mod is a simple mod (I think, its actually been forever since I've fiddled with firing selection). Then add your custom look, melee hardening, and a bayonet mount. BOOM! One Ares Predator, ready for action.

Going from SA to BF is actually a Large Firing Selection Change and uses 4 slots. I guess you can get to work since the Slivergun doesn't have any more or less RC than the Predator.

That said, everyone knows the true weapon of a professional is a Dikoted Silvergun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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Saint Sithney
post Apr 17 2012, 08:48 PM
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QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Apr 16 2012, 01:03 PM) *
After reading this, I came to think of a possible "fix."

1. Flechette ammo is removed from the game.

2. Buckshot is reintroduced, only allowed for shotguns (price and avail. as reg. ammo), and keeping the flechette rules (+2 dam +4 net AP, less range than slugs).

3. Slivergun reduces damage to 4, is reclassified as a light pistol, fires a special small flechette/slivers in a discarding sabot.. which works as APDS (-4 AP ) (cause that's what APDS really IS). Because of the special ammunition and delivery system it uses SA recoil when firing bursts. It has a price 1000 and avail. 12F. Price and avail. of ammo is 50 per 10, and also 12F. It has no real suppressor, but works as if it had because of the special delivery system.

4. APDS is retained as is, and is larger and more costly than the Slivergun slivers.

How does that sound? OP? OK? LOL?


Buckshot is still an option. You just apply the choke rules to the base DV of 7 and AP of -1.
It's all "-xDV, +xAP, -x to dodge, can hit x targets within x meters" and it results in some shitty DV/AP busines.

If I wanted to do anything with shotguns, it would be this. Medium spread is base. Narrow spread increases DV while wide spread reduces DV. AP is unaffected and remains +1 for all shot, regardless of choke settings. After all, more/fewer pellets connecting shouldn't affect AP just like more bullets don't increase penetration for narrow burst autofire.

I'm fine with the slivergun being as you say, a stabbing weapon that's APDS by default. I just wouldn't want it to be available at chargen. I'd make a default APDS, BF, suppressed pistol something hard to find.
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 17 2012, 08:55 PM
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You never use slots when you can get it built-in, Chainsaw. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Chainsaw Samurai
post Apr 17 2012, 09:06 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 17 2012, 01:55 PM) *
You never use slots when you can get it built-in, Chainsaw. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


That sounds like a great way to take the fun out of everything. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead.gif)
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kzt
post Apr 17 2012, 09:59 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 17 2012, 02:55 PM) *
You never use slots when you can get it built-in, Chainsaw. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Everyone needs a chainsaw bayonet. Particularly on their silenced pistol.
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Chainsaw Samurai
post Apr 17 2012, 10:05 PM
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QUOTE (kzt @ Apr 17 2012, 02:59 PM) *
Everyone needs a chainsaw bayonet. Particularly on their silenced pistol.



I almost added it before, but didn't. Since you brought it up:

The underbarrel weapon modification mentions melee weapons. If you have the slots, a bayonet is a horrible waste. Really pathetic weapon compared to, say, a Vibro Knife. That and melee hardening only totals to 4.

And I wish there was a proper ruling for a chainsaw bayonet. The mono chainsaw is a pretty terrible weapon. WAR! might be worth acknowledging for a couple session one-off of chainsaw bayonet murderthon.
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