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> Concealment power fixes, my suggestions
Psikerlord
post Apr 15 2012, 01:30 PM
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Ok so the spirit concealment power RAW is pretty damn badass: -force on perception checks AND can conceal you astrally AND apparently affects all senses (so not foiled by ultrasound or whatever?).

I recommend 2 fixes: (i) you cant use it to conceal on the astral [ie delete the last line of the description], and possibly also (ii) capped at -6 penalty, equivalent of being invisible.

What do folks think? Reasonable? Other suggested fixes? Or does it not need fixing at all - am I reading it wrong or missing something? (I note concealment, weirdly, seems to be subject to wards - p.194 SR4A).
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Shinobi Killfist
post Apr 15 2012, 02:50 PM
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I agree with part 1 as for part 2 I am more for generally halving the number of dice a spirit delivers to the equation, so things that are x2 force are x1 force and things that are x1 force are 1/2 force. On top of that I'd give it as a dice pool bonus to the sneaker, and not a penalty to the viewer. And extra 3-6 dice on a infiltration check is useful, taking 3-6 dice away from a targets perception check is freaking awesome.
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Thanee
post Apr 15 2012, 03:04 PM
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Well, it does not render folks invisible. It just gives a fairly big penalty. But without Infiltration, typical Perception dice pools should still be enough to generate some hits.

Someone with good Perception easily has 14 or more dice to throw around (Intuition 4, Perception 4, Vision Enhancement 3, Attention Coprocessor 3; that's nothing outrageous).

Sure, super high Force spirits will be able to provide Concealment that comes close to invisibility, but then... they probably should. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bye
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Falconer
post Apr 15 2012, 04:06 PM
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This is just me, the simplest fix is to simply change it around. It gives +force dice to infiltration. I also prefer to do the same with things like chameleon suits/camo suits. I don't like the negative dice mechanic... as it's problematic with 'normal' perception pools... (3skill, 3attr, say 2equipment... 8).


Also reread the astral bit... it only applies to dual-natured forms... "Concealment also allows dual natured critters to conceal themselves and others from astral detection". EG: a ghoul could use concealment to hide his normal and astral side from a lurking astral mage. A projecting mage or astral spirit could not use concealment to hide itself on the astral and only astral.
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Udoshi
post Apr 15 2012, 04:27 PM
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The easiest fix I've seen is to change the dice pool buff to Half Force, Round Up.

This makes it useful but not a straight up replacement for infiltration skills.(Remember what its opposed by? Yeah.)
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KarmaInferno
post Apr 15 2012, 04:50 PM
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QUOTE (Falconer @ Apr 15 2012, 12:06 PM) *
Also reread the astral bit... it only applies to dual-natured forms... "Concealment also allows dual natured critters to conceal themselves and others from astral detection".


That interpretation is... questionable.

It doesn't really say that the 'others' have to be dual-natured as well.




-k
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UmaroVI
post Apr 15 2012, 05:06 PM
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QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Apr 15 2012, 12:50 PM) *
That interpretation is... questionable.

It doesn't really say that the 'others' have to be dual-natured as well.




-k

It doesn't need to say that. Concealment is a Physical power. Physical powers can't be used in astral space and can't affect astral forms. SR4A 293 under "Type" on the left column.
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Draco18s
post Apr 15 2012, 05:09 PM
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QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Apr 15 2012, 12:06 PM) *
It doesn't need to say that. Concealment is a Physical power. Physical powers can't be used in astral space and can't affect astral forms. SR4A 293 under "Type" on the left column.


Materialization is a Physical power too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
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UmaroVI
post Apr 15 2012, 05:15 PM
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Yeah, that one is odd.
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Psikerlord
post Apr 16 2012, 01:43 AM
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hmm I quite like the penalty to perception as half force. I think that's pretty reasonable. At force 6 then its -3 to perception which is good, but not super good, and force 6 is no slouch spirit.

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The Jopp
post Apr 16 2012, 05:42 AM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Apr 15 2012, 05:09 PM) *
Materialization is a Physical power too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)


Well, there is a logic in that one. Materialization allows the spirit to become a physical object, it goes from being a purely astral being and becomes physical - from that POV i can see that the power cannot be an Astral based ability as the materialization only works on the physical plane.
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The Jopp
post Apr 16 2012, 05:46 AM
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QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Apr 15 2012, 05:06 PM) *
It doesn't need to say that. Concealment is a Physical power. Physical powers can't be used in astral space and can't affect astral forms. SR4A 293 under "Type" on the left column.


Yup, that was my realization as well. Neither Spirits or Pixies can get any bonuses from concealment on the astral plane in my games. Its rather clear cut, anyone trying to spot/identify/find someone on the physical plane can be subject to concealment - an astral check will render the power moot.

Otherwise Imagine a mage lighting up the astral plane like a lighthouse due to active spells and he just dissapears? Too powerful, after all, nothing can hide on the astral by magic, you cannot use magic to cast invisibility on the astral plane on another person (a spell only works on the plane the caster is on).
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Psikerlord
post Apr 16 2012, 08:06 AM
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Yeah the astral aspect is my main concern with concealment, which appears to break the usual physical/astral separation, in the last sentence describing what the power can do.. subject, I suppose, to the general "guideline only" caveat on powers p.292 SR4A.
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Irion
post Apr 16 2012, 08:19 AM
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QUOTE (The Jopp @ Apr 16 2012, 05:42 AM) *
Well, there is a logic in that one. Materialization allows the spirit to become a physical object, it goes from being a purely astral being and becomes physical - from that POV i can see that the power cannot be an Astral based ability as the materialization only works on the physical plane.

His point is, you can't use a physical power on the astral plane. Meaning you would be unable to materialize...
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The Jopp
post Apr 16 2012, 08:27 AM
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QUOTE (Irion @ Apr 16 2012, 09:19 AM) *
His point is, you can't use a physical power on the astral plane. Meaning you would be unable to materialize...


Ah, yea, I remember now, I tend to ignore that part (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
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Irion
post Apr 16 2012, 08:51 AM
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Yeah, the astral and physical bit is often a bit strange...

If it comes to spells, I sometimes am under the impression they just balanced the drain with it...
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Psikerlord
post Apr 16 2012, 10:03 AM
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Other fix I was thinking was allowing the Search Power to cancel our Force worth of perception penalties, and allowing Search to be used in a general "Patrolling" sense, rather than locate xxxx person. Similar to the way the Guard power counters Accident..?
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The Jopp
post Apr 16 2012, 10:34 AM
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QUOTE (Psikerlord @ Apr 16 2012, 11:03 AM) *
Other fix I was thinking was allowing the Search Power to cancel our Force worth of perception penalties, and allowing Search to be used in a general "Patrolling" sense, rather than locate xxxx person. Similar to the way the Guard power counters Accident..?


That wouldnt be too bad - it would essentially be a spirit version counter to concealment.

I would also allow Search power and Concealment to stack for or against detect enemies by raising or lowering the effective force of a spell.

Say that someone is using Detect Enemies at F6, the subject of detect enemies is trying to find an enemy in range who has F3 concealment, effectively lowering the range of the spell just for that particular enemy. Every other enemy in range is detected at F6 range but for all effective purposes the range is lowered for that target, which can essentially make them invisible for that spell.

The same goes the other way as the search power would ADD force to the Detect Enemy spell making it far more effective.
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Draco18s
post Apr 16 2012, 03:34 PM
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QUOTE (The Jopp @ Apr 16 2012, 05:34 AM) *
That wouldnt be too bad - it would essentially be a spirit version counter to concealment.



Unfortunately we get into the Rock-Paper-Scissors argument here, where it looks like this:

Drones are rock
Street Sams are paper
Mages are scissors

Paper beats rock. Unless rock is being directly controlled by a skilled rigger, in which case rock beats paper (and scissors (unless scissors are invisible)).
Scissors beats paper.
Rock beats scissors, unless scissors is using concealment, improved invisibility, or F5+ spirits, in which case, scissors beats rock, paper, and scissors at the same time.

(Think about magic for a minute: you beat magic with mages (counterspelling), you beat mages with spirits (because critter powers aren't subject to counterspelling), you beat spirits with MORE SPIRITS (because mundane devices can't do diddly squat against spirit armor). And now you want to make it so that the best power in the game (grantable only via spirits*) to be countered by...another power ONLY AVAILABLE WITH SPIRITS).

*Or playing a pixie, which has downsides, such as a max carry limit of about four pounds, which is the equivalent of a half-gallon of milk.
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Bearclaw
post Apr 16 2012, 03:36 PM
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QUOTE (Falconer @ Apr 15 2012, 09:06 AM) *
This is just me, the simplest fix is to simply change it around. It gives +force dice to infiltration.


I think this is the right idea. It would still make detection unlikely, but still possible, by someone actually looking for intruders.
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thorya
post Apr 16 2012, 04:29 PM
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Yeah, I've eliminated negatives to dice pools in a lot of places to eliminate instant wins. Concealment is still powerful if it gives a +Force as infiltration bonus.

One example- A force 6 spirit using concealment against an "average" individual with 6 DP for perception to help a runner with 9 DP (so someone that has infiltration as a secondary or tertiary skill set at best) and 12 DP (a more experienced runner with some infiltration skill).

Chance of being spotted without concealment:
20.6% chance of being seen. (or 39.4% depending upon how you rule on ties for opposed rolls in this case)
10.3% chance for the better guy (or 22.76% if the guard just needs to tie)

Chance of being spotted with concealment current rules:
0.0% (the guard has no dice left)
0.0%

Chance of being spotted with a +force bonus to infiltration:
4.9% (12.2% again if the GM considers the NPC defending)
2.2% (or 6.2%)
So 1/5 versus 1/20 of being seen for someone that's only decent at infiltration or 1/10 vs. 1/50 for someone that's a professional.

That's a big enough bonus that it makes things much easier, without the GM having every corporation hire Spotter McSpotterson as guards just to keep things interesting.
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