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> Armor Stacking, I need to find the definitive FAQ
HeavyJosh
post Apr 15 2012, 07:39 PM
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Hello all,

A quick question. According to the SR4A book on p. 161, armor values don't stack if you're wearing multiple pieces of armor. Fine. This seems to be the case in Arsenal as well. Yet, I get the distinct feeling from reading some of the character generations here on this forum that armor can stack. Can someone please give me the definitive answer?

As well, where can I find the best FAQ for SR4A?

Thanks.
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Chainsaw Samurai
post Apr 15 2012, 07:45 PM
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The core RAW for Armor is that Armor does not stack. As with any other rule in this game, this is the rule unless there is a specific circumstance where an exception is printed.

In Arsenal there are the PPP Systems and Form Fitting Body Armor. Both of these state that they stack with all other forms of Armor, becoming the exception to the rule.

Arsenal also has "piecemail" Armor systems. These are essentially pieces of an armored ensemble outfit that you can wear some or all of and I guess kind of mix and match if you're so inclined (I'm not, so my views on this are a little off).
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Glyph
post Apr 15 2012, 07:53 PM
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FFBA also only counts as half of its rating when determining encumbrance. FFBA tends to draw the ire of some GMs, so it is often nerfed with various house rules.
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remmus
post Apr 15 2012, 08:45 PM
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QUOTE (Chainsaw Samurai @ Apr 15 2012, 09:45 PM) *
The core RAW for Armor is that Armor does not stack. As with any other rule in this game, this is the rule unless there is a specific circumstance where an exception is printed.

In Arsenal there are the PPP Systems and Form Fitting Body Armor. Both of these state that they stack with all other forms of Armor, becoming the exception to the rule.

Arsenal also has "piecemail" Armor systems. These are essentially pieces of an armored ensemble outfit that you can wear some or all of and I guess kind of mix and match if you're so inclined (I'm not, so my views on this are a little off).


a quick check threw of the rules for the form fitting suggests also it doesn't "replace" natural armour or cyberware armour, possibly meaning some players are running around with 3 layers of armour, unless I missed something.
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Chainsaw Samurai
post Apr 15 2012, 09:07 PM
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QUOTE (remmus @ Apr 15 2012, 01:45 PM) *
a quick check threw of the rules for the form fitting suggests also it doesn't "replace" natural armour or cyberware armour, possibly meaning some players are running around with 3 layers of armour, unless I missed something.


3+

Example: Mystic Adept with Mystic Armor, Armor Spell, Orthoskin or Dermal Plating, armor in a cyber arm, and a full set of Form Fitting Body Armor.

It all stacks, and we haven't even put on the normal armor yet so throw on an Armored Jacket or Lined Coat to top it all off.

Also the Troll Dermal deposits and maybe one of the SURGE qualites too.
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remmus
post Apr 15 2012, 09:22 PM
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QUOTE (Chainsaw Samurai @ Apr 15 2012, 11:07 PM) *
3+

Example: Mystic Adept with Mystic Armor, Armor Spell, Orthoskin or Dermal Plating, armor in a cyber arm, and a full set of Form Fitting Body Armor.

It all stacks, and we haven't even put on the normal armor yet so throw on an Armored Jacket or Lined Coat to top it all off.

Also the Troll Dermal deposits and maybe one of the SURGE qualites too.


I have a feeling AP rounds is almost as common as standard bullets with stuff like that X3
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KarmaInferno
post Apr 15 2012, 09:30 PM
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It gets worse if you stack all that on top of an armored anthroform drone.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

The main thing that allows this is that only WORN armor has the prohibition on stacking.

If I were to re-write the system I'd rename "worn armor" to "primary armor" and move a lot of the non-worn armor into that category. Everything else is "secondary armor" and can only add up to, say 50% to the primary armor value.


-k
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 15 2012, 09:46 PM
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Mecha do *not* exist (la la la, no Iron Will, can't hear you). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Even if they did, that's a vehicle you're driving/riding in. I dunno why everyone always mentions vehicles in these threads. You could also sleep inside a missile bunker, but that's not 'your armor'.
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HeavyJosh
post Apr 15 2012, 10:33 PM
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Ok, thanks. Yeah, I would rule that if you stack armour, you only gain the best ballistic/impact value, and possibly a +1 AV for the additional layer (maybe).

Now, is there a centralized and useful FAQ?
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 15 2012, 10:53 PM
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No. There's one on the Catalyst site that has *some* answers, though. They're not all right. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Chainsaw Samurai
post Apr 15 2012, 11:05 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 15 2012, 01:46 PM) *
Mecha do *not* exist (la la la, no Iron Will, can't hear you). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Even if they did, that's a vehicle you're driving/riding in. I dunno why everyone always mentions vehicles in these threads. You could also sleep inside a missile bunker, but that's not 'your armor'.


I don't think he was talking about Mecha, but to normal Anthroform Drones like the Otomo or Tomino which riggers can use.

Those are just (yet another) area where the RAW breaks down into an infinite spiral of "...the hell were they smoking when they wrote this?"
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 15 2012, 11:16 PM
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Oh, I see what you mean. With KarmaInferno, I'm afraid my brain short-circuits to 'pixie in a mecha'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Thanks!

I always kind of assume Otomo armor is the same as cyber armor, so in my brain we'd 'already mentioned it'.
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Chainsaw Samurai
post Apr 16 2012, 01:40 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 15 2012, 03:16 PM) *
Oh, I see what you mean. With KarmaInferno, I'm afraid my brain short-circuits to 'pixie in a mecha'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Thanks!

I always kind of assume Otomo armor is the same as cyber armor, so in my brain we'd 'already mentioned it'.



Well yeah, Otomo wearing Armor and their limbs can be customized like cyber limbs, so yeah Armor + Cyber Armor.

The problem is that there is nothing stopping the Otomo, a drone, from also having its 6 Bod worth of Vehicle Armor. Naturally there is no mention of whether that stacks, only a couple drones mentioning that it's possible.

I really wonder if the guys who write these individual sections talk to each other. I used to wonder if they got together and playtested this stuff, but I think we can rule that out in most cases.
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 16 2012, 01:45 AM
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Well, *everything* with anthro-borgs is a mess, so this comes as no surprise.
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The Jopp
post Apr 16 2012, 08:14 AM
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The Nartaki Armored Wall

Full Cyber Replacement Body
Maximum Bulk Enhancement
Max Armor
Restricted Gear (Cyber Armor)
Restricted Gear (Cyberskull)
Biocompability
In Debt
Born Rich

Basic Cyber Armor Value: 30
FFBA: 6/4
Chameleon Suit: 6/4
Total Armour: B 44 / I 38 with no encumbrance

Ok, normal boring human with stats of 3 but pretty much bulletproof. Have a low lifestyle and 32K left for gear and further limb enhancements.
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The Jopp
post Apr 16 2012, 08:26 AM
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QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Apr 15 2012, 10:30 PM) *
It gets worse if you stack all that on top of an armored anthroform drone.


So...we take a Horseman. give it the enhanced cargo module, add two more mechanical arms.
Take restricted Gear: Cyberarmor
Choose Similar Models to up the body by 1 and lower movement speed
Add Vehicle Armor (BODx2) so 14 armor
Add 4X4 Cyber armor for a total of 16

Vehicle armor of 30 on a personal mobility vehicle.

Oh, we are not done yet. We have used 5 slots of the vehicles 7 so we add an extra mechanical arm and end up with 34 armor on a mobility vehicle that can carry up to 5 different guns (one in each mechanical limb).

We then add Bulk Enhancements so that we negate the space of the armor and add Cyber SMG Vambracers or Shotguns to each limb for some fun firepower.

We now have a military walker drone with a lot of suppressive fire (between 5 to 10 guns giving supressive fire and the armor of a tank.
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StConstantine
post Apr 16 2012, 10:29 AM
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From what i understand stacking armor is how those full suits like the great mortimer stuff works, by itself the suit isnt great but when u add the vest and the shirt it gets a lot better. But remember, the rules on encumberance still hold so u cant just have lots and lots of armor without a bunch of body as well, and if u are wearing a vest, that armor wont apply to your legs, just your torso. You can pretty much assume that shots in shadowrun, if not called will hit the centre of mass of a person (hence helmets not being as important as they should be) or if you are feeling adventurous you can always make up a hit table and roll some dice to see which part of the body gets hit with the bullet.

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Dakka Dakka
post Apr 16 2012, 06:44 PM
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QUOTE (StConstantine @ Apr 16 2012, 12:29 PM) *
You can pretty much assume that shots in shadowrun, if not called will hit the centre of mass of a person (hence helmets not being as important as they should be) or if you are feeling adventurous you can always make up a hit table and roll some dice to see which part of the body gets hit with the bullet.
No, there are no hit locations in shadowrun, not even with called shots. The system is not equipped to deal with them. You cannot try to shoot at a specific location. All the GM can do is describe a particularly successful roll as hitting an unprotected area.

A heavily plated banana hammock will offer the same protection as a full body suit, if their armor values are the same. And both will require the same dice pool reduction to shoot at an unarmored area.

If you try to introduce hit locations to SR you will ge a lot of headaches and the whole armor system will have to be reworked, unless you want at least as many silly cases where the rules don't properly model reality.
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JonathanC
post Apr 16 2012, 07:12 PM
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Has there ever been a definitive ruling on how cyberlimb armor works/stacks? I've seen builds where it is counted as though it stacks, but this seems kind of ridiculous. On the other hand, all of the other enhancements and attributes for a cyberlimb don't stack (have two STR 3 arms doesn't give you STR 6), so there is precedent for now allowing cyberlimb armor to stack.
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JonathanC
post Apr 16 2012, 07:19 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Apr 16 2012, 10:44 AM) *
No, there are no hit locations in shadowrun, not even with called shots. The system is not equipped to deal with them. You cannot try to shoot at a specific location. All the GM can do is describe a particularly successful roll as hitting an unprotected area.

A heavily plated banana hammock will offer the same protection as a full body suit, if their armor values are the same. And both will require the same dice pool reduction to shoot at an unarmored area.

If you try to introduce hit locations to SR you will ge a lot of headaches and the whole armor system will have to be reworked, unless you want at least as many silly cases where the rules don't properly model reality.

The called shot rules cover several cases that are clearly "hit locations", such as knocking something out of the target's grasp, or "targeting a vital area" (such as the head). Furthermore, it's pretty clear in the descriptions that in general, higher armor values are associated not only with the quality of materials, but the area being covered, so it is doubtful that a heavily plated banana hammock would be entitled to the same armor value as a bulletproof vest.

The rules (thankfully) use abstraction to avoid forcing everyone to roll on a hit location table, but there are rules in place for special situations, and common sense goes a long way.
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 16 2012, 07:23 PM
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RAW, FAQ, etc., it simply stacks. It's not an attribute, so it doesn't average (the number work out pretty badly on that, anyway). If you want to avoid fully stacking (and I think we all do, hehe), you have to really revamp it with house rules.

Yes: those aren't hit locations, they're generic 'special effects' of the shot. The GM handles them on a case-by-case basis.
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JonathanC
post Apr 16 2012, 07:27 PM
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Man, I sure hope I get a response to that armor stacking question. it's been bugging me for a while.
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Warlordtheft
post Apr 16 2012, 07:51 PM
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Armore stacking per RAW (we can discuss the sillyness/fluffness/brokeness till the Cyber trolls com home). Listed below off the top of my head are the possible stacking situations. Note this is an extremem case.

Base armor: Such as an armor jacket: 8 Ballisitc/5 impact
Helmet:Such as the securetech helmet: +1/+2
Shield: Just go with the ballistic shield:+4/+4)
Securetech PPP: AFB but I think you can get at least +2/+4)
Formfit body armor: +4/+2 and only counts for half encombrance
Cyber: Adding two arms and a cyber torso with 4 points of protection each:+12/+12 (does not encumber)
Natural: AFB but trolls get a +1/+1 (does not encumber)
Sustained: Force 6 Armor spell: +6/+6 (does not encumber)

Total armor: 38 Ballistic, 36 Impact.

To avoid encumbrance purposes, a 9 body is needed.

What would kill this PC:
Magic
Panthercannon rounds (it would take a few)
HMG fire with APDS
Lasers
Acid
Capsule rounds with DMSO and <nasty chemical>
Thor shot
A Nuke


BTW-this exceeds the armor of a stonewall MBT iirc.

Hmm suggested house rule on cyber armor:
Each limb and head provides up to 3 points armor, the torso may provide up to 6 points of armor.
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 16 2012, 08:20 PM
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It's funny because he's 'ignoring' me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Apr 16 2012, 08:21 PM
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QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Apr 16 2012, 01:51 PM) *
Armore stacking per RAW (we can discuss the sillyness/fluffness/brokeness till the Cyber trolls com home). Listed below off the top of my head are the possible stacking situations. Note this is an extremem case.

Base armor: Such as an armor jacket: 8 Ballisitc/5 impact
Helmet:Such as the securetech helmet: +1/+2
Shield: Just go with the ballistic shield:+4/+4)
Securetech PPP: AFB but I think you can get at least +2/+4)
Formfit body armor: +4/+2 and only counts for half encombrance
Cyber: Adding two arms with 6 points of protection:+12/+12 (does not encumber)
Natural: AFB but trolls get a +1/+1 (does not encumber)
Sustained: Force 6 Armor spell: +6/+6 (does not encumber)

Total armor: 38 Ballistic, 36 Impact.

To avoid encumbrance purposes, a 9 body is needed.

What would kill this PC:
Magic
Panthercannon rounds (it would take a few)
HMG fire with APDS
Lasers
Acid
Gel rounds with DMSO and <nasty chemical>
Thor shot
A Nuke


BTW-this exceeds the armor of a stonewall MBT iirc.

Hmm suggested house rule on cyber armor:
Each limb and head provides up to 3 points armor, the torso may provide up to 6 points of armor.


A quibble...
You can only max Cyberlimb armor at 4 Armor/Limb. So it would be +8 to your calculations, not +12...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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