Awareness Of The Physical And One's Own Body When In VR, It's 13:45, Do You Know What's Happening To Your Meat Body? Options

[bibliophile20]

An odd question, but I can't quite find an answer in the books; there's a -6 penalty for Perception tests when in VR, but how unaware, exactly, of their physical body is someone when they're in VR? Not noticing little things, yes, but would they really fail to notice that the housecat is sitting on their chest, that they're being posed in various embarrassing ways, or (as the prank war between the PC technomancer and his teenaged roommates continues to escalate) that the right half of their body is being shaved, even if the dice pool's been reduced to 0?

[Eratosthenes]

Per various descriptions/fluff, VR pretty much replaces and overrides your senses completely. Some sensation may bleed through, and it might be possible to try to pay attention to what's going on with a concerted effort, but for the most part what you're experiencing in VR blocks out what's going on in the real world.

Shaving one half their body might result in a tingling sensation across their icon for the hacker/'mancer while in VR. The cat might cause them to feel a slight pressure on their icon's "chest". If they have a really high perception DP, then they might just be more aware of what's going on, and would be able to tell what it is.

I like to think of it like Inception, where what was happening in other dreamstates bled through to the current "focused" dream state. Van going over the bridge? Gravity started to go wonky. Maybe not to that degree, but probably something like that.

[SpellBinder]

That's why the smart hacker either has more trustworthy friends, or has a camera (or drone, or whatever) aimed at their body with a personal icon of the feed so they can just glance and see what's happening. An experienced TM can learn the Mesh Reality echo, where they can be in VR and the real world at the same time.

If your DP's 0, then you'd have no idea what's going on to your meat body. You automatically fail any/all perception tests.

[CanRay]

I describe it as "Ragdolling" and everyone understands what I mean by that so far. In fact, the Magician in my group was able to cast a "Control Actions" on the Technomancer when he was in VR with no resistance because his mind was somewhere else.

[DeathStrobe]

If you have no dice to roll, you'd never know.

The only way you'd notice is if you were being attacked. And that might be a maybe. Who's to say you'd assume that just because your mind is slowing down in the Matrix, that you'd know its because you are being punched in the face by a troll or bleeding to death with a knife in your gut.

But why would someone want to beat up some helpless chump who's jacked in to the Matrix when it'd be more fun to tie him up and dump shock him, followed by a series of intimidation tests with a troll and a large melee weapon to see what he knows...or maybe that's just me.

[Yerameyahu]

In fact, the Magician in my group was able to cast a "Control Actions" on the Technomancer when he was in VR with no resistance because his mind was somewhere else.

I'm pretty sure this is not the case, though. For magic.

[Tias]

I advice players playing hackers to take a biomonitor, and in this case I'll allow them to notice (in most cases) things like pain and being moved, as well as when they take physical damage (in all cases, the monitor will pick up stress).

[The Jopp]

I'm pretty sure this is not the case, though. For magic.

Regardless it might have been a moot point as I would have slapped on the -6D6 penalty for resisting the spell. You might even call him unconcious and a voluntary target.

[CanRay]

He was giving a "Thumbs Up" for more money, so the player didn't complain, and even admitted that I had a point about his mind being elsewhere. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Halinn]

He was giving a "Thumbs Up" for more money, so the player didn't complain, and even admitted that I had a point about his mind being elsewhere. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Really ought to stop watching VR porn when meeting with the Johnson.

[Yerameyahu]

Regardless it might have been a moot point as I would have slapped on the -6D6 penalty for resisting the spell. You might even call him unconcious and a voluntary target.

Again, I'm pretty sure *this* is super not-the-case. You're not unconscious or voluntary unless you're unconscious, or voluntary. You don't get such a huge bonus when someone is daydream, meditating, etc. Magic is magical, including the drawbacks.

[CrystalBlue]

Again, I'm pretty sure *this* is super not-the-case. You're not unconscious or voluntary unless you're unconscious, or voluntary. You don't get such a huge bonus when someone is daydream, meditating, etc. Magic is magical, including the drawbacks.

Agreed. In fact, I would say that the mind is a bit more aware about what's going on, since the Matrix is flooding in and out of it at a rate higher then normal machines can go. Mana mixes with the astral and essence, unless you're conjuring something physical. To manipulate someone's mind, you have to take control of their thoughts and play around with them. At that time, their thoughts are anything but slow. I might even go so far as to say that to do a Control Actions on a target in VR, it would be a -2 to the Mage to cast the spell, since the target's mind is super-charged. That's what it feels like to me, at least.

[Yerameyahu]

It's fine either way as a house rule (because everything is). I just object to the idea that it's the 'normal' way things work. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) We had another thread where someone was arguing that a VR mind was 'out' of the body, facrissake.

[almost normal]

It's fine either way as a house rule (because everything is). I just object to the idea that it's the 'normal' way things work. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) We had another thread where someone was arguing that a VR mind was 'out' of the body, facrissake.

It was more that a Technomancer's brain functions in the same manner as a magician's brain, insofar as going hot VR and astral, therefore the obviously duplicitous initiation and submerging powers forcing a target to go into astral/VR would function the same way. After much stammering and "B-b-b-but Magic!" no actual consensus was reached, and in order to keep the Old Ones locked away, such insanity should never be mentioned again.

[Yerameyahu]

It's simply not the case: any hacker's mind always resides in his brain while experiencing VR. There is simply nowhere else for it to be. A mage's mind literally is out of the body when he's projecting.

[CanRay]

It's simply not the case: any hacker's mind always resides in his brain while experiencing VR. There is simply nowhere else for it to be. A mage's mind literally is out of the body when he's projecting.

AH! But what about a Technomancer? That's what was happening in my case. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

I was talking about the technomancer. He's part of 'any hacker', he's just not using a separate commlink. The possibility came up of resonance realms, but that's rare and weird enough to skip for this purpose.

[Eratosthenes]

Well, if it's a mana spell doing the manipulation, then it must go through the mind to affect the body, regardless of where said mind is.

You might rule that a physical spell (like telekinesis) could work with no resist test.

[almost normal]

AH! But what about a Technomancer? That's what was happening in my case. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Exactly. A TM uses their mind in a manner duplicitous to a mage with Astral. TM's can go AR, Mages can Astrally Perceive. TM's can go full VR, Mages can Astrally Project.

Despite what some folks insist, the rules are silent. Go with whatever you feel works.

[Yerameyahu]

This is simply not at all what the rules say. The bionode functions as a commlink, sending signals in and out. The mind does not 'go' to other nodes. In no way is AR/VR analogous to Astral Sense/Astral Project. Astral Perception literally makes you dual-natured; Astral Perception literally shifts your mind fully to the astral form.

This is extra obvious when considering the case of mesh reality, just for example; or the simple, simple fact (already in this thread) that you can perceive (at a penalty) while VR.

[almost normal]

This is simply not at all what the rules say.

Uhhh, what? What rule says that a TM can't go AR or VR?

Or is your argument that there are no "rules" that cover the implicit duplicity of Astral and a Techmancer's handling of the Matrix? Because I'd agree with you. You're seemingly being pedantic for the sake of arguing, but I'd agree with you. Frankly I'm not even sure what you're getting at, as I can't comprehend what this hypothetical rule would even state.

[CanRay]

This is simply not at all what the rules say.

Where? Please state sources.

[Yerameyahu]

No one said anything about technos not using AR/VR.

Yes, I'm saying there are no rules that anyone's mind using AR/VR 'goes anywhere' (this is beyond obvious for AR, of course). AR/VR are simsense signals going into the brain, and nothing else; they are not functionally distinct in terms of 'going anywhere' from using a display. There is no 'going anywhere' (which is handy, because you can work with multiple nodes at once… for big penalties). This is not pedantry, it's the basic nature of simsense; and when the proposed application is 'they can't resist magic because their mind is literally gone', it clearly matters. This is in stark opposition to astral, which is literally another place that the mage's mind literally goes to (for which there are extensive rules).

Everywhere, CanRay. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[_Pax._]

The only way you'd notice is if you were being attacked. And that might be a maybe. Who's to say you'd assume that just because your mind is slowing down in the Matrix, that you'd know its because you are being punched in the face by a troll or bleeding to death with a knife in your gut.

Perfect reason to have a Biosystem Monitor tied in to your PAN. You mgith nto FEEL teh damage, but when your blood pressure starts dropping precipitously, and pain-toxins start showing up in yoru bloodstream? Yeah, that little picture-in-picture jobby you've got should start flashing amber or red, to let you know there was trouble back in meatspace. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Alternately, if you have Nanosymbionts and a Nanohive, link them into your PAN and set them to red-flag you if they have to go active. Even just a bruise should get them moving, and once again you'd get the alert that there was trouble in meatspace.

But why would someone want to beat up some helpless chump who's jacked in to the Matrix when it'd be more fun to tie him up and dump shock him, followed by a series of intimidation tests with a troll and a large melee weapon to see what he knows...or maybe that's just me.

BEcause dead hackers/technos don't call for help from their heavily-armed friends? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[_Pax._]

Yes, I'm saying there are no rules that anyone's mind using AR/VR 'goes anywhere' (this is beyond obvious for AR, of course).

Doesn't matter.

If you go VR, even just Cold Sim, you are TURNING OFF YOUR PHYSICAL SENSES, and replacing their meat-generated data stream with the VR's data.

It's not that your mind isn't IN your meat-body, it's that your mind may not be AWARE of your meat-body. You essentially become deaf, blind, and full-body numb.