Stacking of movement speed increasing things? Options

[tim]

How exactly does the combination of Satyr Legs, Celerity, and Skimmer discs work out if you are a troll? Do they all work off of the base, or just straight up as said and it goes (Defaultx1.5)(1.5)(2)?

[Yerameyahu]

It honestly gets incredibly silly either way, and you'll find people supporting either method. On general principles, I always apply modifiers to the base in any game, but that's just me. You get this same debate for augmentation essence costs modifiers, and the various rules/printings actually disagree on it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[tim]

Ah. Just want to be able to figure out how its meant by RAW to work, because it doesn't say base, but instead uses normal. Relative to other people, normal would mean the base, but relative to you they would add up with it being Basex1.5, then the total of that x1.5, then THAT x2 for skimmer discs. I think.

[SpellBinder]

Well, considering that the raptor legs are modular legs from the knee down, and skimmer disks are modular feet, it'd be easy to rule that you can't stack the two together. Just say that the raptor legs include the feet that can't be swapped out.

[Chainsaw Samurai]

Well, considering that the raptor legs are modular legs from the knee down, and skimmer disks are modular feet, it'd be easy to rule that you can't stack the two together. Just say that the raptor legs include the feet that can't be swapped out.

But couldn't you hypothetically run into the same general silliness with the SURGE trait Celerity or satyr legs and one or the other of those movement speed cyber increases?

Edit: My opnion is that it doesn't matter. Melee gets the shaft so if someone wants to stack a bunch of movement speed to make up for it, fine. Is it rational for someone to be able to run that fast? probably not. Does it really matter for game balance? no.

[tim]

Well, considering that the raptor legs are modular legs from the knee down, and skimmer disks are modular feet, it'd be easy to rule that you can't stack the two together. Just say that the raptor legs include the feet that can't be swapped out.

Satyr Legs, not Raptor Legs. One is a quality, one is a piece of Cyberware.

[SpellBinder]

Sorry, read one and thought the other. And I had thought on that at some point in the past, Chainsaw Samurai. Here's my general take on them:

Satyr Legs = Raptor Legs : replacing one with the other doesn't grant an additional movement bonus.
Celerity + Satyr Legs : +100% movement speed bonus
Celerity + (lower) Raptor Legs : +75% movement speed bonus (round down)
Celerity + (full) Raptor Legs : +50% movement speed bonus (round down) as Celerity is lost
anything + Skimmer Disks : the disks override the movement bonuses*

* My thought on this is the mechanical nature of the ground effect the skimmer disks creates makes whatever muscle and/or other mechanical power your legs may have useless.

Obviously other GM's will have their own views on how to handle these.

[Chainsaw Samurai]

I'll take just a brief moment to politely disagree on the skimmer disks + anything comment.

My take on Skimmer Disks is that they seem to work like high-tech anti-grav roller skates or ice skates. So it seems to me the faster your legs can push yourself the faster you can go. I can see not letting raptor legs work, but I really can't think of a reason why celerity shouldn't work.

Edit: Of course it's your game, do what you want, I'm just throwing my 2c in.

[SpellBinder]

Hey, no worries. I do get where you're going with your side.

Besides, I've never had to implement any of those above as none of my players had ever taken any combination of those metagenetic qualities and/or pieces of cyberware.

[Yerameyahu]

My preference for 'all mods on the base' is a balance principle, not based in logic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Certain things (like skimmers) would indeed make more science-sense behaving in some kind of multiplicative fashion. I just don't wanna deal with that!

I do think that the movement rates are messed up even at the *base* level in SR4, and it ruins immersion for me when someone can outrace motorized vehicles. *shrug* No, it doesn't 'break the game', but it's still bad.

[Chainsaw Samurai]

Hey, no worries. I do get where you're going with your side.

Besides, I've never had to implement any of those above as none of my players had ever taken any combination of those metagenetic qualities and/or pieces of cyberware.

Yeah I didn't think so. I really don't think the super speed stacking whatever would come up in most games. Blah blah Shadowrun blah blah Hyper-Specialists; you get the point, but of all the things to hyper-specialize in I don't think run speed is going to come up often.

I do think that the movement rates are messed up even at the *base* level in SR4, and it ruins immersion for me when someone can outrace motorized vehicles. *shrug* No, it doesn't 'break the game', but it's still bad.

Eh, I don't think it is that big of a deal. If someone really wants to be super awesome fast and mods themselves out for it I say go for it. In fact, this is super-customizable Shadowrun character creation... I think it would ruin my immersion more if someone couldn't be as fast as a family sedan.

But again, I don't see it coming up that often. "Grats on being super fast bro, but uh... we're going to go over here and do Shadowrunner stuff, k?" I mean that is probably so many BP and Nuyen spent on being fast that it could put a serious damper on, you know, your ability to be useful to 99% of Shadowrun teams. One movement speed increase for someone who is intent on getting into melee range is likely preferred, but all of them? That just equates to wasted potential.

[Yerameyahu]

Right, but again, whether it's powerful/breaks the game isn't the point. And it's not 'can *someone* do it', I think, it's 'can lots of someones do it' (a 1/1 human with 0 Athletics can do 18mph for 200m). The fastest human record *sprint* (100m) speed is 28mph. A troll with all the bells and whistles, if you allow full 'stacking', can go like 300mph (even without full stacking, it's quite a lot), and he can keep it up for miles. No, it's not useful, but it's certainly *silly* enough to mess up the mood, and you don't have to go all the way to the theoretical max for that to happen.

[Shortstraw]

Right, but again, whether it's powerful/breaks the game isn't the point. And it's not 'can *someone* do it', I think, it's 'can lots of someones do it' (a 1/1 human with 0 Athletics can do 18mph for 200m). The fastest human record *sprint* (100m) speed is 28mph. A troll with all the bells and whistles, if you allow full 'stacking', can go like 300mph (even without full stacking, it's quite a lot), and he can keep it up for miles. No, it's not useful, but it's certainly *silly* enough to mess up the mood, and you don't have to go all the way to the theoretical max for that to happen.

Forget trolls think centaurs.

[Raiki]

Forget trolls think centaurs.

Actually, centaurs aren't nearly as ridiculous. After all, you're no longer comparing them to the world's fastest human, you're comparing them to the world's fastest horse.

Go cry to MoM about racism all you want...they're fragging horses from the waist down.

[Shortstraw]

I know but when they run faster than a 737 can fly.....

[Stahlseele]

Add in Bull-Rush maneuvre and some other close combat stuff and you can literally run thhrough people.
Furthermore, this sounds to me like it is the old:"blah blah blah this is so silly and overpowered coming from cyber/bioware alone. i am going to house rule it so only magic can do this kind of stuff, because . . magic! yay!"

[Yerameyahu]

… That *is* the case. It's magic. Augmentations are *augmentations*. It's not about screwing augmentations. It's the difference between unpowered roller skates and a jet fighter; skates augment your human ability, the jet fighter replaces it.

But the main point is that a person (augmented) shouldn't be as (perhaps vastly) faster than fast motorized vehicles.

[Chainsaw Samurai]

… That *is* the case. It's magic. Augmentations are *augmentations*. It's not about screwing augmentations. It's the difference between unpowered roller skates and a jet fighter; skates augment your human ability, the jet fighter replaces it.

But the main point is that a person (augmented) shouldn't be as (perhaps vastly) faster than fast motorized vehicles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HofoK_QQxGc

[Yerameyahu]

Whatever that is, it can't be relevant. Either a person can run 60, 80, 300mph on foot, or they can't. (They can't.) Magic can do anything, so that's fine. Jet packs are fine, motorcycles are fine, etc. Robot legs, SURGE, skimmers, (whatever) don't make sense doing that. This is not, as Stahlseele says, magic favoritism or picking on augmentations. It's just near-future immersion.

I understand if it's fine for you. I'm just saying it's not a question of 'broken', but of 'fits the world'. For you, it fits.