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> Sustaining Multiple Spells & Spell range
yesferatu
post Apr 20 2012, 09:33 PM
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Hey guys,

I can't seem to find rules on this. It came up last game.


Casting multiple sustained spells...
"Casting Multiple Spells: In some circumstances, a magician
may seek to cast multiple spells simultaneously (including multiples
of the same spell—for example, targeting two different opponents
with a mana bolt in the same action). Multiple spells may be cast with
the same Complex Action, but to do so the magician must split her
Spellcasting + Magic dice pool between each target. Additionally, the
Drain Value for each of the spells is increased by +1 per additional
spell (Drain Resistance Tests are also handled separately). Multiple
spells are resolved in whatever order the caster desires. The maximum
number of spells a character can cast in a single Complex Action is
equal to her Spellcasting skill, and each spell must be allocated at least
one die."

So...if you're sustaining 3 armor spells at once...is that still just a -2 on all rolls for sustaining?

Range on sustained spells...
I know most spells have a range when they are cast and I believe you don't necessarily need to maintain that range while sustaining.
How far away from the caster could the subject of a force 5 armor spell go? Does the caster need to maintain LOS?
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almost normal
post Apr 20 2012, 09:36 PM
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You're still casting multiple spells, you're just doing it on the same action. It's got no impact on the -2 sustaining penalty.

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UmaroVI
post Apr 20 2012, 10:15 PM
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You can sustain spells on other people as far away as you want. They don't even need to be on the same continent.
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Mäx
post Apr 20 2012, 11:12 PM
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QUOTE (yesferatu @ Apr 21 2012, 12:33 AM) *
So...if you're sustaining 3 armor spells at once...is that still just a -2 on all rolls for sustaining?

It's -2 for each spell your personally sustaining, so that would be -6.
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Neraph
post Apr 21 2012, 05:38 AM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Apr 20 2012, 05:12 PM) *
It's -2 for each spell your personally sustaining, so that would be -6.

QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Apr 20 2012, 04:15 PM) *
You can sustain spells on other people as far away as you want. They don't even need to be on the same continent.

Exactly.
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Dakka Dakka
post Apr 21 2012, 07:07 AM
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QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Apr 21 2012, 12:15 AM) *
You can sustain spells on other people as far away as you want. They don't even need to be on the same continent.
Not even the same plane.
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Neraph
post Apr 21 2012, 07:08 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Apr 21 2012, 02:07 AM) *
Not even the same plane.

It only becomes important when you're sustaining a Physical spell. That won't transcribe to the astral.
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Dakka Dakka
post Apr 21 2012, 07:34 PM
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QUOTE (Neraph @ Apr 21 2012, 09:08 PM) *
It only becomes important when you're sustaining a Physical spell. That won't transcribe to the astral.
Well that is only a problem if the recipient of the physical spell goes to the astral plane. The sustainer does not face that restriction.
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Neraph
post Apr 22 2012, 06:58 AM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Apr 21 2012, 01:34 PM) *
Well that is only a problem if the recipient of the physical spell goes to the astral plane. The sustainer does not face that restriction.

The former is what I was implying.
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FriendoftheDork
post Apr 22 2012, 07:10 AM
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On a similar note, is the drain handled after all the spells have been resolved, or between each? Can you cast multiple spells on the same target? Like casting 4 Lightening bolts at the same target...
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SpellBinder
post Apr 22 2012, 07:15 AM
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QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Apr 22 2012, 01:10 AM) *
On a similar note, is the drain handled after all the spells have been resolved, or between each?

Conditional, typically right after a spell has been cast, regardless if it was successful or not. See further details below.
QUOTE
Can you cast multiple spells on the same target? Like casting 4 Lightening bolts at the same target...

Yes, but you must then split your dice pool to spellcasting four times, and the drain you must resist increases by +3 to each of those 4 spells. You basically make four individual casting rolls, the victim(s) make their appropriate dodge/resistance rolls (if any), then you roll each drain resistance roll.
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Dakka Dakka
post Apr 22 2012, 07:39 AM
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Just to clarify: what Spellbinder wrote is all true but only applies if you want to cast more than one spell with the same complex action.
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FriendoftheDork
post Apr 22 2012, 08:40 AM
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QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Apr 22 2012, 09:15 AM) *
Conditional, typically right after a spell has been cast, regardless if it was successful or not. See further details below.

Yes, but you must then split your dice pool to spellcasting four times, and the drain you must resist increases by +3 to each of those 4 spells. You basically make four individual casting rolls, the victim(s) make their appropriate dodge/resistance rolls (if any), then you roll each drain resistance roll.


Ok thanks thats what I thought.

Power Focus adds bonus dice, so it's not split. So if you have Spellcasting 5, specialization combat, and Magic 5 you would get 5 dice 4 times. Not impressive, but considering many foes might have only 3-6 dice to dodge with in the first place, and that each Reaction test after the first imposes a cumulative -1 penalty, your changes to hit aren't that bad.

let's say cast on Force 3. Drain afterwards is 4, then 5, then 6, then 7. If you have good drain resistance pool you might not take more than 0-2 stun from that. But you can easily be knocked out cold by stun damage so.. probably not worth it.

Those that hit means the target resist between 4 and 7 Electricty damage using body+ (armor/2). Even if he does soak, he needs to make the same test again to resist the stunning effect, perhaps multiple times. 1 Failure means basically knocked out of the combat for the duration. Oh, and if the first blast hit that means -2 to all the other Reaction rolls, even IF he succeeds the threshold 3 test to avoid being stunned.

Maybe stunbolting is more efficent if used in this way. Cast at Force 5 it's still only 1, 2, 3, 4 drain to resist. You probably won't take more than 1 or two from that, and you can get away with resisting all of it.
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Raiki
post Apr 22 2012, 09:28 AM
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Actually, assuming you're casting the same spell at the same force for each of your 4 spells, the drain value for each of them will be the same. The drain value for each spell cast using 1 complex action is increased by 1 for each spell cast beyond 1. Using your example of 4 F5 Stunbolts, the full process would read as follows:

1) Divide total spellcasting pool by 4 in any way you see fit. (Depending on interpretation, dice pool modifiers such as specializations or foci are either applied to the total dice pool that is divided, or added to each of the divided dice pools in turn. See the similar clusterfuck discussion regarding specializations and dual-wielding.)

2) Roll 4 DPs, note hits for each.

3) Target rolls to resist each spell, compare to spellcasting tests to determine success & net hits.

4) For each spell, target takes 5(Force) + Net Hits stun damage.

5) Mage resists 4 drain (5/2-1+3) 4 times.

Sorry for what might seem like an unnecessarily detailed description, but this is a complicated subject with too much room for error; I just wanted to make sure that my intent was clear.


Edit: Grammar and correcting some mistakes.

~R~
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Dakka Dakka
post Apr 22 2012, 12:47 PM
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QUOTE (Raiki @ Apr 22 2012, 11:28 AM) *
3) Target rolls to resist, compare to spellcasting tests to determine net hits.
Target rolls once for each successfully cast spell (at least one gross hit).

QUOTE (Raiki @ Apr 22 2012, 11:28 AM) *
4) Target resists 5+Net Hits stun damage 4 times.
Nope, the opposed test above is the only resistance the target gets. Apply 5+net hits stun damage to the target.

@FriendoftheDork: Why would you use a lightning bolt? Direct combat spells are so much better.
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FriendoftheDork
post Apr 22 2012, 12:58 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Apr 22 2012, 02:47 PM) *
Target rolls once for each successfully cast spell (at least one gross hit).

Nope, the opposed test above is the only resistance the target gets. Apply 5+net hits stun damage to the target.

@FriendoftheDork: Why would you use a lightning bolt? Direct combat spells are so much better.


It was an example. But also because of the secondary effect, and because in my game direct spells uses te SR4A optional extra drain rule, and we have lowered all indirect spell drains by 1.

And your answer proves why we use those rules (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Irion
post Apr 22 2012, 01:27 PM
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Well, it is this thing of overdoing an example, untill it proves the opposite point.

Casting a force 5 lightning bold 4 times is just silly, if the -2 are not cumulative.
(Why? You will probably even fail one and you won't have a lot of net hits.)

Casting a force 6 or 7 lightning bold twice is a different thing.
Higher chance to not fail the spell, higher chance to hit.

But the most important thing is, less drain but more damage!
Simply because of how the damage resistance in SR works.
4 hits mean 4 times soaking. Making them much less likely to do a lot of damage in the end.
(Only exception here would be direct spells, since the do not get a soak roll...
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Shortstraw
post Apr 22 2012, 01:43 PM
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Multicasting also requires that there be no enemy mages around because they will laugh at you with their counterspells.
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Dakka Dakka
post Apr 22 2012, 03:39 PM
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QUOTE (Irion @ Apr 22 2012, 03:27 PM) *
Casting a force 5 lightning bold 4 times is just silly, if the -2 are not cumulative.
(Why? You will probably even fail one and you won't have a lot of net hits.)
A Lightning bolt is not a sustained spell, so there is no penalty.

If you did cast more than one sustained spell at the same time, I think none of the tests would suffer a penalty though, because at the time of the roll the magician is not yet sustaining any spells.
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FriendoftheDork
post Apr 22 2012, 03:49 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Apr 22 2012, 05:39 PM) *
A Lightning bolt is not a sustained spell, so there is no penalty.

If you did cast more than one sustained spell at the same time, I think none of the tests would suffer a penalty though, because at the time of the roll the magician is not yet sustaining any spells.


I believe he is referring to to the Lightning effect. They do not stack, only duration (which is per default long enough). It's still a point that said person has to resist stunning 4 times though, so it is not a complete waste.

Oh and I did not have a point - which is why I'm using extreme examples to explore the options.

Oh, and lightening is better vs counterspelling mages, because if the attack hits you can be stunned, even if Body+(half impact armor)+counterspelling soaks all the damage.
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Dakka Dakka
post Apr 22 2012, 03:54 PM
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QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Apr 22 2012, 05:49 PM) *
Oh, and lightening is better vs counterspelling mages, because if the attack hits you can be stunned, even if Body+(half impact armor)+counterspelling soaks all the damage.
You may want to look at SR4A. They nerfed indirect combat spells. The target rolls REA+Counterspelling (if applicable)+Dodge (if on full defense) to avoid being hit. The damage is soaked with BOD+0,5*Impact Armor+Elemental Defense(Fire resistance, insulation etc.).So most likely the lightning bolt, especially if multicast, will not hit.
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Irion
post Apr 22 2012, 05:59 PM
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@Dakka Dakka
It was about multicasting. Due to the way it works, it is mostly useless to multicast more than 3 times. (And this is only usefull if you only need few net-hits and drain is low)
(And again it is only usefull if you use the "friendly" ruling. (Which kind of becomes very unfriendly as soon as you have negative modifiers to throw around. Fog, and hello to -2 to every single spell... BC 1...)

So in the end the idea of multicasting 4 times on the same target gets very useless, very fast. (Double does work, because you nearly double the damage for only +1 to drain and around -6 dice)
To go from double to tribble means +1 drain for +50% and -2 dice.
To go from tribble to quatrouble means +1 drain for +33% and -1 dice.
So you end up with +2 drain and -3 dice, meaning you could also just increase the force by up to 4 (if your magic is high enough) and you will have one additional net-hit...

QUOTE
The target rolls REA+Counterspelling (if applicable)+Dodge (if on full defense) to avoid being hit. The damage is soaked with BOD+0,5*Impact Armor+Elemental Defense(Fire resistance, insulation etc.)

Counterspelling is added to the reaction roll? Are you sure of that? This is really silly.
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Raiki
post Apr 22 2012, 06:31 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Apr 22 2012, 08:47 AM) *
Target rolls once for each successfully cast spell (at least one gross hit).

Nope, the opposed test above is the only resistance the target gets. Apply 5+net hits stun damage to the target.



Fair enough. I thought I did a pretty good job remembering things at 5:30 in the morning with no books to reference. Thanks for the correction though. Consider it fixed.
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Dakka Dakka
post Apr 22 2012, 07:34 PM
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QUOTE (Irion @ Apr 22 2012, 07:59 PM) *
@Dakka Dakka
It was about multicasting. Due to the way it works, it is mostly useless to multicast more than 3 times. (And this is only usefull if you only need few net-hits and drain is low)
(And again it is only usefull if you use the "friendly" ruling. (Which kind of becomes very unfriendly as soon as you have negative modifiers to throw around. Fog, and hello to -2 to every single spell... BC 1...)

So in the end the idea of multicasting 4 times on the same target gets very useless, very fast. (Double does work, because you nearly double the damage for only +1 to drain and around -6 dice)
To go from double to tribble means +1 drain for +50% and -2 dice.
To go from tribble to quatrouble means +1 drain for +33% and -1 dice.
So you end up with +2 drain and -3 dice, meaning you could also just increase the force by up to 4 (if your magic is high enough) and you will have one additional net-hit...
Agreed.


QUOTE (Irion @ Apr 22 2012, 07:59 PM) *
Counterspelling is added to the reaction roll? Are you sure of that? This is really silly.
Unfortunately yes:
QUOTE ('SR4A p. 204')
If the spell reaches the chosen target and it fails to dodge with Reaction (+ Counterspelling, if available), the target then resists damage with Body + half Impact armor. Each hit reduces the Damage Value.

Yes it is silly. About as silly as penalizing the magician for casting well.
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FriendoftheDork
post Apr 22 2012, 09:20 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Apr 22 2012, 05:54 PM) *
You may want to look at SR4A. They nerfed indirect combat spells. The target rolls REA+Counterspelling (if applicable)+Dodge (if on full defense) to avoid being hit. The damage is soaked with BOD+0,5*Impact Armor+Elemental Defense(Fire resistance, insulation etc.).So most likely the lightning bolt, especially if multicast, will not hit.


This is epic sillyness. Indirect combat spells were the least nerfworthy of them all! I smell house rule....
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